TV interview - NITV

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Subjects: Garma, Indigenous Affairs, Closing the Gap, North East Arnhem Land, NT Child Protection Laws

JOHN PAUL JANKE, HOST: Minister, thanks for joining us here at the Gama Festival. Always great to have the opportunity to sit down and chat with you amongst the beautiful stringybark here.

MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: It is beautiful. Lovely to be with you JP, here at Gulkula. It's a very special place. 

HOST: Yeah. Garma, what are your thoughts every year when you come to Garma? 


MINISTER: I look forward to seeing everyone really and listening to the wisdom of the Elders here, the Yolngu Elders. Sometimes we get things right, sometimes we don’t, but you always know it's a safe place to be able to talk about things and talk through what might be happening, but also what the future might hold. And secondly, it's also an opportunity to see so many Australians from around the country and people who come from overseas, to actually have a chat with them about First Nations culture. 


HOST: It is such a great opportunity to catch up with lots of Indigenous leaders and also lots of corporate leaders as well. Of course, you're here, the Foreign Minister Penny Wong, is here, the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Australians Julian Leeser is here. The Prime Minister isn't here, and he made a commitment last year, I think, to come every year that he is Prime Minister. Why didn't he come to Garma this year? 

MINISTER: Look, the Prime Minister has given his reasons, obviously, to the Gumatj people here and spoke to them. He comes to this place through us now, in terms of my role, and also our senior minister in Penny Wong. We know that Anthony Albanese is a friend of Garma. But there are sometimes other things that need his attention this particular time. 


HOST: Do you think it's a missed opportunity that he doesn't come to Garma? 

MINISTER: Not really. We've had the Prime Minister in the Top End just the other weekend, on the Tiwi Islands. He’s certainly travelled up here about 19 times, I think. He reminds many of us, in, you know, good way, good way, that he's certainly there. I don't think there could ever be a Prime Minister more supportive of First Nations people in this country, than Anthony Albanese.


HOST: We heard yesterday the Shadow Minister for Indigenous Australians Julian Leeser, during his keynote, talk about post referendum and he said that the government had really been adrift when it came to Indigenous policy. What's your response to being accused of being adrift when it comes to Indigenous affairs policy? 

MINISTER: Well, certainly, good to see that Julian Leeser is here and lovely that he's been able to bring his family to experience life with First Nations people. I think all politicians really should consider doing that, especially those who don't think favourably of First Nations people. I just want to make that really important point. The parliament's a very difficult place to deal with people who don't want to have much to do with our mob. I think secondly, in terms of what he's saying, I certainly don't agree with that. We are moving along, it doesn't help though, when you have such an obstructionist, if you like, in terms of different policies that we try to put forward in the parliament. Our greatest strength is working with the remote and regional Australians at the moment in terms of rolling out jobs in those areas with the RJED program, but also, just as importantly JP, reducing the cost of living, we've been able to, for around 120 stores in remote Australia, be able to reduce the cost of about 30 items, like 50%, and it's made a significant change in the way people live. Especially when you see what's happening in the Middle East and the impact of fuel and the cost of fuel prices. These are very real and practical steps that we take. I think in terms of wanting to move away from the loss of the referendum, I understand that there’s still many people who find that really difficult. My job is to stay focussed on Closing the Gap and working with the Coalition of Peaks across the country and the Indigenous Affairs Ministers. There are some jurisdictions that are not easy to deal with. 

HOST: Are you worried that we’ve seen a rise in One Nation, and support for One Nation? Are you worried that post referendum, anything to do with Indigenous affairs gets dragged into this sort of almost culture war, that really stops any advancement when it comes to Indigenous affairs. That we’re brought back into that referendum of, we voted no against that, Welcome to Countries are thrown in, Acknowledgement of Countries, Indigenous expenditure. Are you worried that with the rise of One Nation, that we're heading back into this type of culture war? 

MINISTER: Well, we know where One Nation and the far right sit and unfortunately the Coalition are joining them in this. There is no defence from the Coalition around Welcome to Countries or respect for that, if anything, they’ve joined One Nation in not wanting to be a part of that. So, for us as a government, we are very mindful of the fact that we have, just here in the Northern Territory alone, over 100 languages First Nations people. We see that Welcome the Country is significant. It is respectful. It is important that people feel welcomed in these areas wherever they travel and understand that our country does have a history that stems back over 60,000 years. We are unashamed of that, not only as a government, but as the Labor party, that's what we stand for. They are our values, and that's what we are ambitious for. 

HOST: But it must frustrate you as an Aboriginal woman, that so much airtime and media time is devoted to Welcome to Countries when really, we should be talking about issues that affect all Australians, and in particular, Indigenous Australians, like health, housing, education, cost of living, but we're talking and debating about Welcome to Countries. That must frustrate you. 

MINISTER: Look, I do believe that Australians are smarter than that. They can see through what is a quick grab on a social media hit. It's short-lived. There is no real strong substance to it. I think genuinely, when we hear a Welcome to Country and fellow Australians respect that, and know it’s a good and decent thing to do. We saw with the Anzac Dawn Service there, how people really reacted to that, in terms of being very angry about the disrespect that was shown. And it is always about respect, and I think Australians can see that this is a respectful practice and treat it as such. 


HOST: Minister, the Productivity Commission released its data report on Closing the Gap. Only meeting one of 19 of the targets, kindergarten attendance, and we've seen a rise in the amount of kids going to kindergarten. But we've also seen increases in the number of people in out of home care, incarceration and suicide rates. Is there a sense that we seem to be taking one step forward, but we're taking multiple steps back when it comes to Closing the Gap? 

MINISTER: Well, I certainly look at the Target 3 being met as something that's very heartening. And if you look at the reasons behind why it’s been met, you'll see that it is largely because the Aboriginal Community Controlled sector has been very much involved and that governments have actually worked with them in a very genuine partnership. So, if that is the process in which we can achieve the targets, then it shows us all of those other targets can be met by doing the same thing. 

HOST: Do we get too caught up in data when it comes to Closing the Gap, and that affects the narrative that we're failing? 


MINISTER: I think the data is really significant even though it's in the negatives. It's significant, because we need to actually be able to gauge how we’re going, and then put the reasons behind, how was it that we're achieving, or how is it that we're not achieving? That does matter in this instance. The Prime Minister is certainly working with all of us, as Cabinet ministers around the table, to try to be responsible for the particular targets that we have. And it's the same emphasis I've placed on the Indigenous Affairs Ministers when I meet them at Joint Council, that each of their Cabinet members have to focus on it. That is not easy JP. It is very tough. Especially when you do see the rise in incarceration and out of home care. So, I will also be looking at other ways in which we can apply the pressure that's applied and go harder. 


HOST: I could imagine as Minister, you've travelled around the country, you visit regional, remote, metropolitan Indigenous communities. You've seen a lot of success, success in justice reinvestment, in Community Controlled health programs, in educational outcomes. How do we turn Closing the Gap into an Indigenous success story? 

MINISTER: By never giving up. It's really important that we persevere in this space. You have a government at the Commonwealth level who's absolutely determined to work on this. But we do need the states and territories to do their bit as well. And if they're not, then we have to, with the Coalition of Peaks, work out ways to pull those levers, in order to achieve these targets and keep going to the best of our ability, whilst we have the opportunity. 

HOST: Minister, a couple of the conversations here in forums at Garma about post 2030, which is when the mine, the Bauxite mine, will withdraw from North East Arnhem Land. We're seeing the closure of a major retail supermarket here at the end of this financial year. How do we set up communities like Yirrkala and North East Arnhem Land? How do we set them up for success? 

MINISTER: Yes, I've been working with the Rirratjingu and the Gumatj people over the last couple of years in preparation for this, and I'm very pleased to see that we are closer to understanding where the Rirratjingu want to go as Traditional Owners, in terms of land tender, and all of that will need to be established over coming months in further consultations with clan groups in the region. From a government perspective though, I am working with my colleagues, Senator Tim Ayres and Madeleine King with their respective portfolios, so that we can look at opportunities beyond post mining here in the region. There's a deep sea port here which could hold many opportunities. 
You certainly have the fuel structures and capability here, which is another opportunity, and we want to ensure that businesses continue. We see some great tourism that occurs in this region, with the Bawaga Homelands, for example. We know that there is much more to do, but there is plenty that's going on that we can sustain. 

HOST: I want to talk about NT child protection legislation. We saw that legislation pushed through the NT Parliament recently. Lots of criticism from Indigenous organisations and Indigenous leaders, both within the Northern Territory, but also nationally. What are your thoughts on that legislation? And how do we get that balance right between care and protection, as well as making sure that culture is also that common thread inside those policies? 

MINISTER: Well, again, this requires Aboriginal organisations to be at the table, if the Northern Territory Government is working appropriately in the space of the targets and also the priority reforms. It is about engaging sincerely with the First Nations sector. We have seen the anger that's come out as a result of that legislation. These are things that I know that my colleague, Tanya Plibersek at the national level, is also dealing with. We also put in place a National Children's Commissioner, who could be a very strong advocate in jurisdictions like the Northern Territory and anywhere else for that matter where there are concerns around legislation, seeing the high rates of children in out of home care. 

HOST: If you look back to the 2023 referendum, people voted against a Voice to Parliament because they said we have a Voice. I am the Voice to Parliament for Indigenous Australians, elected politicians said that throughout many jurisdictions across Australia. So, when Indigenous leaders and organisations actually put forward, I suppose, their objection to legislation like child protection laws, they feel as though they weren't listened to, or they weren't consulted. Does that frustrate you that they're not being listened to? Given that that was one of the reasons why people voted no. They said, we don't need a Voice to Parliament because I am the Voice to Parliament for Indigenous people. Does it frustrate you?

MINISTER: Oh, I certainly see the frustration of First Nations people, they want to be heard, they're respected in their field, whether it's in a medical field, whether it's in a child protection field, but they feel they're not being heard. I certainly understand their frustration at what's going on. My job is then to look at, what can I do at my level, or with my colleagues, what can we do? And we have to be mindful of the fact that there's different things we can do in each state and territory, but you've always got to keep everyone at the table to work things through. 

HOST: One of the policy announcements that the Shadow Minister said yesterday was about an audit when it came to Indigenous expenditure, in particular, the National Indigenous Australians Agency, an audit of their programs. Is that something that you support? 


MINISTER: Well, I'm asked this question constantly, at various occasions, usually through the Senate Estimates process. We have the Australian National Audit Office conduct audits, and quite regularly. So, there are many documents there that already show the audits that have taken place. So, I'm not quite sure what in particular they want to do, when we're already doing it. 


HOST: You've been Minister for many years now. You've travelled around the country. You've been to lots of communities. I see your social media, you're constantly travelling and busy. What still fascinates you and excites you about being the Minister for Indigenous Australians? 

MINISTER: It is an absolute honour to be Minister for Indigenous Australians, to see the strength of our culture, the resilience of our people, the humour. I think our ability to laugh, even through some of the most difficult times, helps. We see so much sorry business and sadness. In my life personally as much as professionally, as I travel. And I am very, very proud of our people, very proud.

HOST: Minister, thank you so much for joining us. 


MINISTER: Thank you.