Topics: NT Remote Housing Agreement, remote communities, Closing the Gap, Yiŋiya Guyula
STEWART BRASH, HOST: Over a fortnight ago, we reported the partnership agreement between the Northern Territory Government and the Commonwealth to build 2,700 remote homes was starting to fray at the seams. It's apparent the $4 billion, 10-year housing partnership, which was originally slated to build 2,700 houses for remote communities, will probably deliver far fewer. In part because the NTG claims communities wanted houses with more rooms, therefore less houses. It's also due to the NT Government's desire to dip into the budget for admin and block servicing.
NT Housing Minister Steve Edgington says the deal needs to reflect steep increases in costs, “around construction, freight, fuel, labour, infrastructure and all those servicing costs have increased substantially, not just over the last 12 months, but in the last six months.” Last week in Federal Parliament, the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy, when answering questions from Senator Lidia Thorpe said “we are in a position now where the Northern Territory Government wants to negotiate or renegotiate an agreement, that is a 10-year agreement where we're supposed to have 2,700 homes built, 270 a year. The NT Government wants to reduce that down to 1,800 or maybe 1,100 homes.”
Now, the two levels of government and the Aboriginal members of the Joint Steering Committee met on Monday. So, have these issues been resolved? Minister, good morning.
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Good morning, Stewart and good morning to all your listeners. Well, I can certainly say to your listeners that houses are being built. Absolutely. And I think that's really important to put at the forefront of this, that 346 houses had been delivered by the end of March, Stew. And I think it's evidence of the housing that is being built. What we're in the process now is of very, very important negotiations about how we go forward with regards to the numbers over 10 years.
HOST: And there's the key thing. You and I spoke about this. I spoke with Steve Edgington. Now you in Parliament said they want to build between what, 1,800 or maybe 1,100. Is that a fact? Is that what the NTG say they want to build?
MINISTER: There was certainly early negotiations some very many months back, where we were receiving different numbers through the discussions at agency head level with the department. What we were able to do this week, Stewart, was to actually have the Aboriginal Caucus involved. And if I can just say to your listeners, what's important about this particular agreement is that for the first time in federal funding arrangement agreements, we do have a third party at the table and that is the Aboriginal caucus. And that's part of Closing the Gap, to make sure they have input and are part of the decision making.
HOST: But have you resolved the impasse with the NTG? And I suppose the question is they obviously want more money for administration and block servicing. Has that been resolved?
MINISTER: Look, they've certainly, Minister Edgington's made it very clear to us, to both the Commonwealth and the Aboriginal caucus that the Northern Territory Government are saying they're not seeking more money, Stewart. They want to spend the money that's in the current federal funding agreement very differently.
HOST: So, tell us about it. What do they actually want?
MINISTER: They request program management costs and also headworks to be a part of the agreement. This is something that we are having a disagreement on, but I am very mindful that it was a respectful conversation amongst all parties and we are now going away to have a review into the $4 billion agreement to look at what we do going forward. The Aboriginal caucus certainly do not want things to change. From the Commonwealth’s perspective, we don't either. So, we now need to look at, both between the Commonwealth and the Northern Territory Government, how we progress forward.
HOST: Can you be explicit on how much money the Northern Territory want to take out of the agreement to do the admin and the headworks. Money which originally was not to be taken out for that, as we understand it. So, how much money do they want to take out?
MINISTER: Well, we're looking at program management costs of around $400 million, Stewart, and head work servicing from between $500 million up to a billion dollars.
HOST: So, that's money which was not put aside in the original agreement to do that work, correct?
MINISTER: Well, that's correct. It never has been in previous agreements either.
HOST: So, that's up to $1.4 billion taken out for work on headworks and for land servicing and for admin?
MINISTER: This is the request, Stewart. So, we are obviously very concerned about that request. Yes.
HOST: If that request was granted, how many fewer houses will be built?
MINISTER: Well, we're not looking into that. We know that we need to, from the Commonwealth's perspective, want to build up to 2,700 homes over 10 years -
HOST: But surely. Surely if that –
MINISTER: Can I just finish though.
HOST: Sure.
MINISTER: At a minimum, 2,210, in order to halve the overcrowding, which is the intent of this agreement.
HOST: So, you would accept 2,210 houses as the minimum amount of houses built?
MINISTER: Well, we are aware that that would be a minimum number. There is no agreement at this particular point of that. We are still committed to up to 2,700.
HOST: If you granted the Northern Territory Government's request, what would be the impact on this project, on this partnership?
MINISTER: Well, we are not looking at granting the request, Stewart. That is where the impasse is.
HOST: At all? Can there be compromise? Are you willing to compromise on what the NTG are requesting?
MINISTER: We're willing to continue to sit down at the table to look at other alternatives with the Northern Territory Government. We know it's important to get these houses built in the long-term, but if I can emphasise again, the houses are being built currently. We are talking about the longer term part of the plan.
HOST: The review you mentioned. What will that entail? Who's involved?
MINISTER: Look, the Remote Housing Partnership Agreement does require the Joint Steering Committee to undertake a review Stew, and that's supposed to happen following the second anniversary of the agreement. So, that was in July, the second anniversary of this agreement. So, the terms of reference are being considered now and I'm happy to provide more details once we're able to, obviously in consultation with the JSC.
HOST: Is this just kicking the can down the road by running a review, rather than just saying a straight no to the NTG. Saying, no, we can't do this.
MINISTER: No, it's actually inbuilt into the agreement. It was inbuilt two years ago. This is a really solid opportunity for us to stay at the table.
HOST: If you granted, I know you're saying you're not going to grant the request from the NTG. If it was granted, would we be building 1,100 houses or 1,800 houses? Would it be down to 1,100?
MINISTER: Well, Stew, I've said that we don't agree, so we're not contemplating any other numbers.
HOST: Well, you used that number in Parliament, so that's why I'm asking you.
MINISTER: That was the number they had proposed earlier in the piece. We've had the negotiation since I spoke in Parliament, which I've appreciated, and it was certainly a very respectful environment.
HOST: How much is the NTG proposing to build?
MINISTER: That number they haven't provided.
HOST: OK. Now, Senator Thorpe raised the issue that I think $300 million hadn't been spent by the feds, in regards to this project. Just clarify, because as I understand it, you will not pay the Northern Territory Government until they have actually done their side of the bargain. So, they've actually, literally invoiced you for the work done. Have you been invoiced by the NTG as yet, for the 340 plus houses which are said to have been built?
MINISTER: Yes, I certainly have and they have received payment. It is correct that the Northern Territory Government come to me once they've completed certain tasks for my approval to sign off and they have certainly done that. As I've said at the outset, 346 houses have been delivered. So, there is housing continually being built as we try to negotiate going forward.
HOST: Is the NT Government a threat to this project, to this partnership?
MINISTER: Well, they're at the table. Minister Steve Edgington is certainly a Minister who is working with First Nations people and with the Commonwealth to try to get to an amicable position. He understands the regional and remote areas and he does want to see houses built. But he’s also obviously got problems.
HOST: But I suppose I'm asking, if they don't get their way, could they blow up the project? Could they blow up the partnership?
MINISTER: Well, it's like any agreement, Stewart, it does require the good will of every party at the table to stay there and to actually work through the difficult moments. And this has been a difficult moment.
HOST: This morning in the Australian, Marion Scrymgour, your colleague in the Northern Territory said she saw merit in Cape York leader Noel Pearson's proposal for the Commonwealth to deal directly with the nation's more than 200 remote communities and the organisations representing them. Do you support that proposal to cut out the states and the NT and maybe the housing example might be something to follow. Do you support what Noel Pearson has been saying and he raised it at Garma?
MINISTER: Look, my focus all along has been how we are delivering on the Closing the Gap National Agreement, and that means one of the areas I've always spoken about since October last year, is that there is no financial, sort of penalties if states and territories don't adhere to the targets in Closing the Gap. And so, Noel Pearson's map of the remote and regional areas reflects what I've said, in regards to that.
HOST: It seems to go further though, doesn't it? It seems to go further in terms of literally dealing out the states and territories.
MINISTER: His commentary certainly does. What I'm doing is looking at the local government associations and also the Aboriginal community-controlled sector, both of whom are a part of the National Agreement on Closing the Gap.
HOST: But you're not interested in going further down the road. And Marion Scrymgour says she -
MINISTER: Well, no, no, that's not true.
HOST: She saw merit.
MINISTER: We're actually doing it in the Northern Territory Stewart. I've, for the first time in the history of federation, I have been able to negotiate an agreement in the Northern Territory that includes the Aboriginal community-controlled sector at the table and that is through the NTRAI. That is a really significant agreement. That is one of the FFAs where I've already started to change it and that means the Northern Territory Government plus the Aboriginal community-controlled sector have to put papers to me, as to whether money should be paid for certain projects, as part of the NTRAI or certain schedules.
HOST: You're hearing from the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy. Minister, what's your reaction to the Northern Territory Government's announcement to build a privately built and run remand prison in the Top End to house 1,200 male prisoners. They'll also build a 200 bed women's facility to be operated by the Department of Corrections. What's your reaction to those massive infrastructure builds and prisons?
MINISTER: Well, it's a matter of priorities, isn't it? We can certainly see what the priority of the Northern Territory Government is. Here we are trying to negotiate over housing, where they're asking for nearly half the cost of what they're inputting to a $4 billion agreement, into administration and head lease. I think that's a clear example of the fact that housing isn't their priority, if they're looking at a prison.
HOST: What is their priority?
MINISTER: Well, a prison clearly. If that's been their announcement this week, it's quite disappointing really. Here we are genuinely trying to get these houses, a long-term housing plan on the road to what we said a few years ago. They say they have problems with funding, yet they can put forward a new prison.
HOST: I’ll finish up on the decision by Yiŋiya Guyula, the Member for Mulka, to resign, effectively immediately. He said in leaving that the CLP's policies were dehumanising, oppressing and destroying Aboriginal communities. Is he right on his view of the CLP?
MINISTER: Look, I think it's really, really disappointing and so sad to see Yiŋiya go. He's an incredible Elder. I've known him for decades prior to coming into Parliament. He's certainly admired and very well respected. This is a really clear indictment of how difficult working in the Territory Legislative Assembly is, especially for a Yolŋu Elder who knows his community. And I think it's a really sad indictment on the Northern Territory.
HOST: Is he correct in his analysis? Do you agree that the CLP are dehumanising, oppressing and destroying communities?
MINISTER: It's pretty tough. It is tough to negotiate with the Northern Territory Government on remote and regional areas where you do see a large population of First Nations people. It isn't easy, especially when you've got prisons as the number one focus. It's not easy. But I continue to persevere and I well understand the difficulty for Yingiya.
HOST: That is the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy speaking to us.