PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The Prime Minister today tabled the government's annual report on progress under the National Agreement on Closing the Gap and announced new funding for remote jobs, food, security and health cleaning upgrades. He used a speech in the House to condemn the white supremacy ideology behind the alleged terrorist attack on the Invasion Day rally in Perth that happened last month. Now, I spoke to the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy, a short time ago.
Minister, welcome to the program.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Great to be with you, Patricia.
HOST: The Prime Minister says he is not contemplating failure today, but I don't understand why we should be optimistic because just four out of 19 targets are on track to be met by 2031. So, how can he not contemplate failure when they're on track to fail?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, we've got six others that are improving and many others that actually hit the target. So, there is really solid evidence that's coming through that our investment, in particular around jobs, is making a real difference.
HOST: Indigenous people across the board today are saying this is, however, a failure. Your government is taking a different line. I know some of them are quite frustrated that there isn't more of a concession from the government that this isn't going the way it should.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Oh, it's tough. I think we've said that. I've said that on numerous occasions. Having to liaise with the states and territories, knowing that many of those targets that we're not on track with, do fall under their purview, and I have to constantly keep reaching out to them, whether it's around justice, whether it's around the out-of-home care. It matters that we have the states and territories on board and that's always going to be the complex part of this.
HOST: Ok, let me take you to that. Are you saying that some of the failure that we're seeing are because the states and territories are not playing the role they're meant to?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: What I'm saying is that those areas and those targets, which are really impacting hard on the ground, like the high incarceration rates, the concerns even around the deaths in custody, it matters, the relationship that the Commonwealth has with the state and territory jurisdictions. That's why I met with the Attorneys-General, that's why I met with them with the federal Attorney-General, to emphasise at their SCAG meeting late last year that we really needed to pull out all stops on this. The big thing that the Commonwealth's doing, Patricia, is the Justice Reinvestment program. We are seeing some real improvements in those. We only have to look at the solid examples, like on Groote Eylandt for example, like in Maningrida, we are seeing runs on the board. So, I'm saying to those state and territory jurisdictions, you actually have good results under this program. Emulate them.
HOST: Are there more, you know, the sort of carrot and stick approach with the states and territories, given the Commonwealth has a really big stick, particularly when it comes to territories, and the biggest fails often are in the Northern Territory. So, why not use the stick?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, this is where I've been talking about the federal funding agreements, and clearly there's a need for me to be able to work with my colleagues in the Cabinet. I do need the support of the Education Minister, the Health Minister, the Justice Minister and all of those Ministers who are responsible for many of those targets as well, in Closing the Gap. And if we can look at the federal funding agreement arrangements that will go a long way in terms of what we can do. I'm looking at it in terms of the Northern Territory, with the Northern Territory Remote Aboriginal Investment, and that is my first port of call, is looking at that agreement and making sure we can, encase the Closing the Gap targets within that.
HOST: Ok, so in that agreement, can you just be specific for our viewers?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Sure.
HOST: Do you want to build into that agreement that they only get the Commonwealth money if they enact certain ideas or policies?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: What I want to build into that agreement is that these are the ways to go about trying to improve some of these targets. And so, we're working on that at the moment. That is what the Commonwealth's doing with the Northern Territory.
HOST: There's only five years left on the plan, right. So, if it fails, what then?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I'm an optimist. I feel that even my position being here within the last year and a half as Minister for Indigenous Australians was something I didn't expect to happen. So, I feel that I have to keep going and keep working. To me, if the Prime Minister's determined not to fail, that pleases me, because I'm certainly determined to keep going as well.
HOST: Does the Invasion Day bombing threat, and of course, that's now before the courts, but in Perth, for those who don't recall. Has that guided your thinking about future policy? The Prime Minister addressed it in his speech today.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I think what it did was expose the deep sense of hatred and racism that First Nations people have felt in this country for many years. But it has been heightened in recent years. And when I was over there last Thursday to meet with the Elders and also the rally organisers, with the Premier and also the WA Police, this is the conversation we had, Patricia, that people need and want to feel safe in our country, and so do First Nations people. So, we've naturally, the Prime Minister began his speech, conscious of the fact that we have to reach out, not just to Boorloo Perth, but also to all First Nations people right across Australia.
HOST: The referendum has been attributed as a sort of turning point in Australia in a negative way, that it's increased racism, particularly towards Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders. Do you agree with that thesis?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, we've certainly seen a rise in racism. I mean, I get it on my social media at times, or a lot of the times. It's the families around me who feel it the most. I was just with the Daly River mob when they got evacuated last weekend. So, I was with them on the weekend and out of everything they wanted to raise with me, the one thing that worried them the most was the criticism, the anger, the hatred that was being piled on toward them for being evacuated. And that was happening online.
HOST: They were being blamed for being evacuated?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY. So, there were stories about their evacuation. So, it might have been on the ABC, it might have been on Sky News, it might have been on NT News. They were reading the commentary on those websites and the hatred towards them in those websites was quite disturbing. And so, they raised that with me.
HOST: Does that mean that National Anti-Racism Framework, which the government's been criticised for not responding to, has to be put at the top of your to-do list?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I know that Minister Anne Aly is the lead minister in terms of that, and we have certainly had conversations, especially over the time, in regards to Bondi, with what was happening then. But I've certainly raised it with her as well in terms of First Nations, but also with the Attorney-General. So, it is a very real issue in front of us.
HOST: Have you raised concerns from the community among your Cabinet that the Royal Commission into Anti-Semitism should be broader and should include racism more broadly, including, of course, against Indigenous people?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Sure. I've seen the commentary around that and the comments by certainly Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I won't obviously talk about Cabinet, but I will say this, Patricia, that in my direct conversations outside of Cabinet, I have had those conversations, yes.
HOST: So, you have said a widening might be necessary?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: What I've had is the concerns around racism and what can we do with regards to the Royal Commission and I am conscious that in, I think it's the fourth reference, terms of reference in the Royal Commission, when we talk about social cohesion, there's scope there. But I've also called on the community to be able to make sure they put in their submissions, in regards to it. Ultimately, at the end of the day, it will come down to the Commissioner as to how she runs the Royal Commission.
HOST: So, you're saying there is scope to look at racism against Aboriginal people?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, we talk about social cohesion. So, anyone. Whether it's Aboriginal people or anyone else in this country who feels they have something to say about social cohesion, then I would say -
HOST: And you've said that to Indigenous organisations, you should use this as a platform.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I said it last week in Perth.
HOST: Right.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I've said it in the media press conference last Thursday. I believe that is the case and I would encourage people to do that.
HOST: Minister, thank you.