Subjects: Low-Cost Essentials Subsidy Scheme, National Agreement on Closing the Gap, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Art Gallery of Australia, Yipirinya School.
Stewart brash, HOST: A promise and initiative announced by Labor in the lead-up to the last federal election, back then the Minister for Indigenous Australians Malarndirri McCarthy announced the cost of 30 essential items in community stores would be subsidised so prices were comparable to prices in urban areas. The expected savings for remote consumers was supposed to be up to 50%. So far, more than 50 Northern Territory remote stores have accessed the scheme, the Low-Cost Essentials Subsidy Scheme. Food items that have been made cheaper include tinned veges, canned fruit, rice, along with everyday items like nappies and toilet paper. The scheme is administered by the NIAA and delivered by Outback Stores. At the time of the announcement, small wholesalers in Alice and Darwin warned the scheme would deliver a monopoly to Outback Stores and potentially make their businesses, many owned by Aboriginal organisations, far more marginal. I spoke earlier to the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy, and asked her why, given the 50 stores which have signed up, why more had not joined up to the program.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Well, there has to be an agreement about how they want to carry the goods. They have to have the agreement through NIAA and Outback Stores. Those agreements may have already been met, which I may just not be aware of it at the moment with those Northern Territory stores. I think it's fantastic though, Stewart, that since the announcement in July that we've now got 50 in the Northern Territory and I do thank those stores for participating but also those stores that are still wanting to come online.
Stewart brash: Is that because, you mentioned the National Code for Practice for Remote Store Operations, there’s three standards, three key areas they need to meet; governance, operations and health. So, is that the need to meet those standards? Is that stopping some stores getting on board?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: We wouldn't say stopping. This is also just about the negotiations, as you can imagine. If we've got 152 stores that want to come online, it will take a bit of time. But I'm pleased to see that since July we've got 50 already in place. So, I just encourage stores to get in touch certainly with the National Indigenous Australians Agency.
Stewart brash: I know it's early days and I know the idea, the aim is to reduce 30 items in community stores by up to 50%. Do we know as yet what impact it's having?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: We certainly do. I have been travelling around the Northern Territory, Queensland and Western Australia in particular to have a look on the ground and see what's happening in terms of families and cost of living. Just even with my recent trip to Daly River, I was able to see in their store there, talk to families. They've told me they've got a real reduction in prices by at least 50% for their families and that's what matters. Obviously, we've got to hear from the other areas across the country. Palm Island was probably where I went most recently to launch the hundredth store. So, I do want feedback and I look forward to feedback from organisations and communities around how it's going.
Stewart brash: One thing raised to me, and also when you look through the list of 30 items, there's no fresh food in those items. Is there a reason for that? Is it too hard to put a subsidy on fresh food? Because we often talk about the failure to be able to get good, low cost, fresh food into community stores.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I think it's a case of this is a really important opportunity to trial the goods that we can in terms of essential items. Fresh fruit and veges always is a must. What I'm also trying to do at the same time is making sure we can look at opportunities for the growth of fresh food and veges in those communities. We’ve got great programs that are happening in a number of places and you'd know about Ali Curung with the work that's being done there in terms of the growth of their foods and veges. I'm conscious that I've got to work within the guidelines of the ACCC as well Stewart, and make sure that every step I take is within the parameter of the consumer affairs laws.
Stewart brash: Yeah. But on the face of it, it was too difficult to deal with fresh food under the subsidy scheme.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I'd like to see it as something that I'd like to move into going forward, but at this point in time we'll stay with the 30 essential items we have on the list.
Stewart brash: You mentioned the ACCC. Now, of course, in the lead up to the last federal election, there were some local wholesalers, especially in Alice and Darwin. I think many of them actually owned by Aboriginal organisations who were concerned that the scheme would favour Outback Stores because Outback Stores is delivering the subsidised product to these stores. Has that come to be? Has this scheme cemented Outback Stores as a monopoly player when it comes to the delivery of these items to remote stores?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I've met with the businesses in Alice Springs who've raised concerns and listened to them. One of the parts of our conversation was that they actually agreed with the policy. They think it's a really good policy and I did appreciate that feedback from them. Where the difficulty is in being able to support them directly as opposed to having a single service like the Outback Stores. And I'll have a look at this going forward. I do want to be mindful of where this policy is causing a few problems. And this is one area that I can look at once we've rolled out the 152 stores Stewart. This is not about saying we can't move into a better [indistinct]. It's never been done before in Australia in terms of our communities and remote communities. And I'm conscious that it's not a perfect policy, but I'm very willing to work with everyone. And I certainly say to those businesses that I met with, thank you for your time.
Stewart brash: Do the small businesses say that this is having an impact? Because these 30 items have been delivered subsidised by Outback Stores. Do they say they're being affected?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Yes, they did. They told me that they want to have an in, so I'm going to have a look at that and see what's possible.
Stewart brash: Yeah. Of course they said, why can't we be subsidised to deliver these products as well? And why can't they? Because they're wholesalers, they have stores they already deal with. Why can't they be dealt in and not just leave it as a monopoly for Outback Stores?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, this is a really critical policy. It is -
Stewart brash: No, no, no, I know, but I just wonder why they can't be part of it.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, there's a lot of people who would no doubt want to be a part of it, Stewart, and that may well be the case once we roll out these 152 stores. But for now, I've said to the businesses, I'll keep engaging with you and I will keep working on this and let's see what we can do. But my primary goal here is to improve the lives for those families in the remote communities. And I want to get these stores rolled out and I will certainly keep in touch with the businesses to see what we can do going forward.
Stewart brash: They have said if there is having an impact, anti-competitive impact, they'll go to ACCC. Are you concerned that this will end up in the ACCC?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I've been guided by the ACCC in the way I've rolled this out. I did include the ACCC in the forum I held in Canberra with wholesalers and the ACCC, just so I can make sure that I'm working within the guidelines and I believe I am.
Stewart brash. So, you think any attempt to go to the ACCC will fail?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, look, that's up to them, Stewart. I just know that I'm trying to do the right thing here.
Stewart brash: Can I just turn to something which was in the news yesterday? It was reported you wanted to look at changing financial arrangements if states and territories were failing to improve outcomes for Indigenous Australians. What did you mean by that? What were you looking at?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, this is something I've raised at the beginning of this term coming in, that sometimes we need to have a look at the federal funding arrangements on many areas. And one of the difficulties we found with Closing the Gap is that, and a few people have asked me this, I was asked this at Senate estimates just the other week, actually, which is where it came up. Why can't states and territories help us in reducing those targets? And I said, look, this is an agreement, but it doesn't come with any strings attached to what happens if you don't reach that target. So, this is where the questioning went in Senate estimates. And I've been pretty much clear on the record since coming in that we have to have everything on the table, to actually look at why aren't we reducing the targets across the country? And if states and territories are going against the targets, what can we do? So, what I'm starting to do now is have those conversations with the states and territories. We already do it with the housing. So, the housing money that we deliver into the Northern Territory as part of the $4 billion package, $2 billion from us, $2 billion from the Commonwealth, but also the additional package over homelands and outstations, there is an expectation on the Department of Housing in the Northern Territory to deliver, otherwise we will not provide the funding. There is no such expectation around Closing the Gap.
Stewart brash: And that goes to the issue, because of course, as you know, here in the NT, I think we're doing the poorest in terms of Closing the Gap, in some cases going backwards. We know incarceration rates have been going up. So, what are the areas you're most concerned about by say the NT Government's behaviour and actually what they're delivering?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I've spoken with the Northern Territory Government, with the Chief Minister and both her Ministers, the Attorney-General and the Indigenous Affairs Ministers, about my concerns in regards to the rising rates of incarceration but also the overcrowding in the prisons and they're aware of it. I've raised it at the Attorneys-General as well, that we need to have programs to assist once prisoners are in the prisons, plus youth in youth diversion, to be able to put them into other areas so that we can see those numbers fall. But at the same time, have young men and women who live in our communities without that trauma of going through the prison system when they could have had other alternatives. At the moment, you've got nearly 50% of prisoners are on remand. They haven't even had their day in court Stewart.
Stewart brash: Would you be looking to say redo the NTRAI, because that's where a lot of the remote area funding comes from. Would you look to revisit the NTRAI, as a way of saying to the NT Government, you've got to fix up some of these issues or else we're going to prune your money?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Absolutely. The NTRAI is currently in negotiations and through my conversations, obviously with the Chief Minister over the last couple of months, there is a recognition of the issues I'm raising with Closing the Gap. But I do appreciate, and I say this most sincerely, the Northern Territory Government says it's not walking away from the Closing the Gap Agreement and I appreciate that -
Stewart brash: They're not doing a very good job though, are they? They're not doing a job of Closing the Gap.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, there's many other issues around Closing the Gap. I mean, I've specifically pointed out the incarceration rates and the out of home care rates across Australia. But I have to keep trying with the Northern Territory Government along with the other states and territory governments, Stewart. And we have the ability to do that, but do we have the political will to do that?
Stewart brash: How long before you could change the system, could change the dials on this issue?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: That's a good question, isn't it? I mean, I think time is of the essence. Next month, I'll be meeting the Joint Council with all Indigenous Affairs Ministers and the Coalition of Peaks. I would say that the Coalition of Peaks, who I work with and co-chair with Pat Turner, will be running out of patience and I understand that. Those organisations do apply enormous responsibilities on all of us to do the right thing. So, I would say that at next month's Joint Council meeting, we will get a full understanding of how serious this matter is.
Stewart brash: I don't want to go into the where and with all of the death of the ATSIAGA here in Alice Springs, because according to the CLP Government here in the Northern Territory, it's dead. We couldn't do a deal between the Federal Government and the NTG on this. Can I ask, though, the $80 million quarantined or put aside for the gallery by the Commonwealth, should that be quarantined to stay in Alice Springs? Because we know we need it, we know tourism needs it. We know we need it on a whole range of fronts. Will you seek to see that $80 million quarantined to stay in Central Australia?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I understand that Catherine King has spoken to your program, Stewart, or at least to the ABC and said that the money will go back into the coffers in terms of federal infrastructure funding. I'm not disturbed by that. I just think that what was important here was a decision was made finally. A decision that disappointed a lot of people and it's a decision that probably didn't disappoint other people who were very pleased to see that it didn't happen. What I would say is this to the residents of Alice Springs -
Stewart brash: What about you? What was your feeling when you heard the news?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I'd certainly say this to the people of Alice Springs, that you have a really strong advocate in Marion Scrymgour, and I'm very proud to work with her. We've been around politics for quite some time. We don’t give up. We will not give up on Alice Springs.
Stewart brash: Is the idea of a national gallery, which is to highlight Indigenous art, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander art in the heart of Australia. Is that idea dead?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, it certainly is not going to happen on Anzac Oval Stewart, but I will say this to your listeners, Marion Scrymgour is determined to see that art gallery go forward and I am very proud to work with her on any kind of new proposal that she and others may wish to put forward to the Commonwealth.
Stewart brash: So, there is still life. Is it possible that there'll be more Commonwealth money forthcoming to deliver that?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, again, if this is a new concept and a new proposal, Stewart, it would have to go through all the processes of the ERC and Budget and I would be very pleased to work with Marion and the people of Alice Springs towards that.
Stewart brash: Can I just finish on the issue of the guilty sentence this week of Gavin Morris, the former principal of the Yipirinya School here in Alice Springs. Now, he was found guilty on four out of five counts of aggravated assault involving students at the school. Now, he's due to be sentenced in the court in December. Now, what was your reaction to that guilty verdict?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Pretty horrified, Stewart. Principals are the leaders of the school and you expect as a parent that your child goes to school and they'll be safe. And I think it was clear from the outcome of the guilty verdict that that was not the case. So, I'm pretty horrified by it.
Stewart brash: Yipirinya of course is an independent Aboriginal school here in Alice Springs. But what does this tell us? What do you think this means for the future of the school now that he's no longer the principal? But what about the future for the school?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Look, I went to Yipirinya this year. There are staff there who are so dedicated to working with the children of Yipirinya and I believe that the school is resilient enough to bounce back and keep moving. And I do commend those staff who work with the students there and the families who put so much into trying to create an environment that does work. But when things fail, like in this instance, incidents occurred and they were tested in the courts and found wanting. Now we know that the former principal won't be a part of that school and hasn't been a part of that school. This gives Yipirinya an opportunity to move forward and to have a better vision and future going forward.
Stewart brash: It does ask questions about the appointment of Mr Morris as a principal. Do you think, and I know again, it's an independent Aboriginal school in Alice Springs, what does it tell us about the need to scrutinise, essentially senior teachers or head teachers or principals like this who go to work in the schools in Northern Territory and beyond?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, there are laws in the education system. There are laws that the Education Minister and the Education Department have to adhere to. I'm not across all the details in regards to contracts and how the school is run, but I would expect that those laws are followed and adhered to.
Stewart brash: Malarndirri McCarthy, Minister for Indigenous Australians.