SUBJECTS: Death in custody in Alice Springs; truth-telling, Joint Council on Closing the Gap, North West Shelf
HOST, PATRICIA KARVELAS: Returning to one of our top stories and one we've been following all week, the grandfather of the 24-year-old Yuendumu man who died in police custody in Alice Springs this week has paid tribute to his grandson and said the community needed answers and justice. I spoke to the Indigenous Australians Minister Malarndirri McCarthy a short time ago. Minister, welcome to the program.
MINISTER MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Thank you, Patricia. Good to be here with you.
KARVELAS: If we can begin this interview, just reflecting on this tragic death in custody. I know you've spoken with an Elder in the man's family. What have they said to you and what have they asked for?
McCARTHY: Well, I've certainly spoken to a number of the family members. This has been an incredibly difficult time, a very traumatic time for families at Yuendumu, but indeed across Central Australia and beyond, and in particular for those people who witnessed this event as well, Patricia, whether they were people who were just generally shopping in Coles at the time, who were around, it's having an impact that what we're trying to do, I guess in terms of myself and my colleagues, is to just try and help de-escalate a lot of the fear and the misinformation and rumours that often abound in these circumstances. We have to remember that there is a family and many family members who are mourning and grieving, and we just need to give some time to that.
KARVELAS: You mention fear, misinformation, rumours. Can you be specific about what happens in these kinds of events that you're saying you're trying to de-escalate?
McCARTHY: Well, we all know the impact of social media. Sometimes it can be really good and sometimes it can be really bad. And often times in tragedy you do get very complimentary and empathetic responses. But sometimes you get some real hatred and that doesn't help a situation where there's a deep hurt. In this particular situation, though, Patricia, as you know and many others, Yuendumu has had many traumas. In June 10, they're going to receive a Coroner's report into the death of Mr. Walker. That is something they've been preparing for for quite some time. And now they're dealing with this immediate death of a family member. So, it's compounded in their grief, but also in their anger.
KARVELAS: That anger is quite strong at the moment. This is a community that, as you say, because of the Kumanjayi Walker pending report, there is a sense of despair. I spoke to your predecessor, Linda Burney yesterday who said this issue of deaths in custody does need to be revisited. What can the government do to revisit this issue, because this is clearly a pattern that we know exists for Indigenous Australians. What can be done to try to reduce the cases of Indigenous people dying in custody?
McCARTHY: Well, if I can just separate slightly from this current investigation that's going on with Alice Springs at the moment, Patricia, and talk more broadly, if I may. Even the high rates of incarceration of First Nations people is a matter of concern across Australia, but especially here in the Northern Territory. We have to look at these issues. We have to look at the opportunity for anything other than jail time. What can we do? What about the behaviours of people involved, whether it's an arrest or whether it's people in custody already, the behaviour of others around them. So, there's many things that need to be looked at. We've got the Joint Council meeting here in Darwin at the end of June where all Indigenous Affairs Ministers will meet, plus the Coalition of Peaks. This will be an incredibly serious conversation that we're going to have together when we all come together.
KARVELAS: That's a really important point. So, the end of June is this meeting. Do you expect issues of death in custody to be one of the dominant issues of this meeting? And are there specific proposals that you might take to this meeting?
McCARTHY: Well, both Pat Turner, the head of NACCHO, but also the Chair of the Coalition of Peaks and myself, we both co-Chair the Joint Council that comes together twice a year. We did it in Perth at the end of last year and we raised the issue of the high rates of incarceration, and we called on Indigenous Affairs Ministers to go back to their cabinets to talk to their colleagues about what else we can do to ensure that there wasn't such an increase of First Nations people in custody. So, this meeting at the end of June is going to be quite critical to what has been the outcome of that in those conversations. Let's remember, Patricia, that Closing the Gap isn't just about Indigenous Affairs Ministers, it is about all Ministers. Every Minister around a cabinet table in an Australian Parliament, because every jurisdiction has signed up to the agreement.
KARVELAS: Well, obviously there is a kind of tiered approach in our federation. Have you spoken to the Northern Territory Chief Minister about this latest case and what might be done looking forward into that due meeting?
McCARTHY: I've certainly spoken with the Chief Minister about this particular event. That's the tragic event that's happened in Alice Springs. We've just had a very quick conversation and I appreciated that. I've certainly spoken to the Commissioner of Northern Territory Police. But in terms of the event, that's going to occur with the Joint Council. That is the responsibility of the Indigenous Affairs Minister here, Steve Edgington. They will be hosting all of us as we come together from around the country. And I'm very sure that as we get closer to that date, this conversation and many others will be part of that.
KARVELAS: I want to move to another topic, and that is a call this week from Pat Dodson, who called for the government to push forward with the National Truth Telling Commission, Makarrata and a treaty process. Are those things that you will look at again?
McCARTHY: Well, can I just say with Pat Dodson, who I've worked very closely with in the Senate, I'm just incredibly pleased that he's been able to come through and come out in terms of the media again, given all his own personal challenges. And it's wonderful to see the Father of Reconciliation out there this week in particular. I think it's important what Pat Dodson has said. We have an opportunity now to have a look with our new parliament, with our second term of government, to see what we can do moving forward. One of the things the Prime Minister and I have said with regards to the Uluru Statement from the Heart was that we supported the three principles, Voice, Treaty, Truth, and we've never shied away from that. So, this is the appropriate time for leaders across the country to have their say. And we're listening.
KARVELAS: That's a really interesting point you made. He says the referendum was on one question and that was constitutional change. For a Voice, Australia clearly voted no, but he made the point that treaty and truth were not on the ballot paper and they weren't. So, does that mean you think that is an opportunity to revisit these important principles?
McCARTHY: Well, there were a number of things that weren't on the ballot paper. It wasn't just treaty and truth, it was also Welcome to Countries, Patricia. And we saw how the Opposition wanted to use culture wars through the election to determine what that outcome of the referendum was. And our country thankfully voted no against hate, voted no against culture wars and supported us in moving forward. And I take that not only as the Minister for Indigenous Australians, but also as a Yanyuwa Garrawa woman in the Labor Caucus. I take that as an opportunity for us now, as a Labor government, to. To really have a good look at what we can do in this term.
KARVELAS: Ok, so on Makarrata, it's not dead. You think that it has life in it still?
McCARTHY: Well, like I said, when the referendum was voted down, we never opposed the three principles of what the Uluru Statement from the Heart was Voice, Treaty, Truth. We certainly lost the voice. We did take that to a referendum. So, if this is an opportunity to listen. I was just down in Victoria with the Long Walk. I see the Commissioner, in terms of the Yoorrook Report, walking to take that report to the Parliament in terms of truth telling. I see what's happening in Tasmania. The states are taking the lead on this. I want to understand what's happening with the Voice in South Australia in terms of their legislation. This is a time for us to come together and see what we can do moving forward.
KARVELAS: Ok. So, as Minister for Indigenous Australians, you do want to commit to those principles and try to advance them in this term, this second Albanese government term?
McCARTHY: We've never shied away from the principles. Patricia. I understand, listening to Pat Dodson and many other leaders, that they may want something to happen specifically now, but even Pat Dodson would know that we still have processes within the Labor Caucus. We have a First Nations caucus to meet. We've got to be sworn into Parliament at the end of July. There's still a road to go. But can I say to your viewers, I am very much open to listening to what people have to say.
KARVELAS: Yeah, because people have been frustrated that some of these issues have been abandoned. You say the principles are important, but there has been a sense that the government hasn't wanted to advance them. You're saying that the election victory provides a new mandate for the government?
McCARTHY: I'm saying that the election victory shows that our country said no to hate, our country said no to culture wars and our country said we are proud of Welcome to Countries and standing in front of the flag.
KARVELAS: And so, does that message also mean that you think having some sort of national truth telling process is necessary for that reconciliation process and healing to happen?
McCARTHY: Well, I think you had Linda Burney on your program yesterday, talk about truth telling in terms of local areas. I mean, truth telling can occur within school environments and committees and communities across the country. What I'm saying in terms of my role as Indigenous Affairs Minister, is that I'm ready to listen to see what possibilities there could be in going forward.
KARVELAS: Just on a couple of other issues. We've had Environment Minister Murray Watt decision on the North West Shelf handed down, but of course that ancient rock art is a big issue. Some Traditional Owners are very upset about this, as you know. Are you comfortable with this decision, given some Traditional Owners don't want this to happen?
McCARTHY: Minister Murray Watt has carriage of this decision, Patricia, and clearly has made his reasons for making the decision in terms of the next 10 days. We obviously have to see how this process goes. I understand what concerns there are not just with this particular issue, but with First Nations people across the country around the preservation of cultural heritage sites and moving forward and, and I will want to understand more of this. We will be in Western Australia next week and I'm hoping to be able to do just that in terms of listening to the people who are involved with this.
KARVELAS: Just finally, you have a new opposite number. Jacinta Nampijinpa Price is no longer the Shadow Indigenous spokesperson for the Coalition. Kerrynne Liddle will do that job. Have you reached out to her? And I know you've been wanting to build a sort of bipartisan approach. Clearly, bipartisanship wasn't there at the end of that last parliament. Do you think this might herald a new era?
McCARTHY: Well, I certainly congratulate Senator Liddle on her appointment. I've known Senator Liddle for a very long time. We grew up together in Central Australia. So, I'm very pleased to see her in that role. I know she's very forensic. She will certainly keep us on our toes. But I also know that in the previous term, when I've asked for an opportunity for us to work together, especially around Closing the Gap, Senator Liddle did take part in that, and I look forward to reaching out to her.
KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us.
McCARTHY: Thank you.