Subjects: Labor’s commitment to Closing the Gap.
DANIEL JAMES, HOST: Minister, welcome to 7am.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Hello Daniel, lovely to be here and hello to all your listeners.
DANIEL JAMES: You took on the Indigenous affairs portfolio in July last year when your predecessor Linda Burney stepped down, and this was of course not long after the country voted resoundingly against a Voice to parliament. What was it like for to you step into that role at that particular moment?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, it was certainly an absolute honour to be able to step into the role, Daniel, especially when I had worked so closely with Linda Burney. It of course was difficult with the outcome of the referendum, but I was fairly realistic in the sense that the Australian people have voted and their decision was no. As disappointing as that might be we accept the decision and my role was to actually move us forward and to keep reaching out to our communities and our First Nations families and remind ourselves that we are a resilient people. We have had many disappointments over many centuries and we’re still here and we’re still very strong. The first thing I wanted to do when I became Minister was to reach out to my opponents, especially those who are vehemently against the yes vote, to invite them to rise above using Indigenous affairs as a political football. And that was a real focus for me and continues to be.
DANIEL JAMES: Minister, most of the Closing the Gap targets are not on track. The rate of suicide among Indigenous Australians is increasing, the rate of children in out‑of‑home care is increasing, more Indigenous people are being sent to prison and Indigenous Australians die well before our time. You have been a member of parliament in the Territory, you have been a Senator since 2016. You have spent time in these communities where these facts and figures are played out in real life. Why aren't we seeing change?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: We are seeing change, Daniel. We are just not seeing it at the pace that we would like to see it at. And I do commend the Aboriginal community organisations across the country who are working with me to implement that change. In particular, the Aboriginal community medical services across the country who have led the way in terms of local empowerment, self‑determination to try and improve the lives of First Nations families. Through the Closing the Gap we have 80 members of the Coalition of Peaks who represent 800 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander organisations across the country. That's a phenomenal number. They want the governments of each state and territory, and the Commonwealth, to move more quickly on assisting with the areas that they have already identified are the problems; exactly what you have mentioned with the high rates of suicide. So, our plan for 2025 is to see more psychologists, Aboriginal trained psychologists in that area to be able to assist in subsidising that. We have been able to put out 500 Aboriginal health workers across the country and offer that in traineeships. There are over 300 who have accepted that. We have been able to look at the First Nations Children's Commissioner role and establish that, and that person is going to be very responsible for interacting with states and territories about the high rates of removal of our kids. It's just not good enough.
DANIEL JAMES: What’s it like to dedicate your life to this work and see some of these outcomes actually go backwards?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I'm a very passionate person in terms of wanting to see the improvement for people whose lives are in poverty and it largely happens to be First Nations families. But I'm mindful that there are ordinary Australians who are in exactly that same sense of poverty and wanting to rise above the despair. What I have found, Daniel, is a lot of this is working with the people where there are pockets of such goodness and hope and energy and enthusiasm, and I am determined to work with people where I can see we have got the runs on the board. I find often as I travel across the country that those people who are achieving, they are not recognised for the work they’re doing. And if we can get behind the people who do have the answers ‑ and they are largely our Aboriginal community organisations, largely our Aboriginal elders ‑ they know the answers and the solutions to a lot of these problems and we must get behind them. And that is the approach I take in wanting to improve the lives for First Nations families across Australia.
DANIEL JAMES: Is the disadvantage that Aboriginal people are facing across the country, is that a class issue as much as it is a race issue?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, it's a poverty issue, isn't it, really? If you look at the issues that people ask for, they want good homes, they want houses to live in. They want to be able to have a job that they can get up and go to and feel respected and that there’s dignity in the work that they do and that they’re paid at a rate that they can afford to look after their families, that they have long service leave, superannuation, holiday pay. This is important to me. And I have been trying to roll out a thousand jobs in the ranger space, 770 identified positions for First Nations women. But I want to see, through the Remote Jobs program, Daniel, the rolling out of 3,000 jobs. I’ve been talking to workers in Kununurra, in the East Kimberley and then in Central Australia around the town camps. They have been really, really pleased with the rise in their pay and the fact that they have dignity in the workspace and the fact that they can look after their families.
DANIEL JAMES: Minister, you just announced a big package for remote communities, $842 million. But $205 million of that is earmarked for policing in remote Northern Territory communities. The Territory already has more police per capita than anywhere else in the country. Why do those communities need more police?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I would look at that statistic in terms of more policing per capita. What I would say is this, Daniel. That when we have the largest case of family and domestic violence, largely here in the Northern Territory, the one thing I do get when I travel our communities is, “Where are the police? Where is the support for our women and families?” So, I beg to differ there in terms of those statistics, and I know that there’s been a large injection of police to Alice Springs. We have also had people from the police force in South Australia come up under the call of the Chief Minister of the Northern Territory. So, I would say that the safety of women and children is paramount. But at the same time, the Commissioner of Police, who, at Garma last year apologised to First Nations families for the history of the police force relationship with Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory. Now, I trust that that is a beginning, a new beginning, under the Police Commissioner in terms of wanting to see more Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the police force, to have a better understanding in terms of the many languages we have. It's an imperfect system and often a system that disappoints, but we cannot give up and we must not give up on wanting to ensure the safety of our families in the Northern Territory.
DANIEL JAMES: What do you think is a good outcome from that investment, and why do you think it's a good idea?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, community policing is something that I think has always been talked about, when you do it at the local level. And there are many good examples across the country, not just here in the Northern Territory - when you do have community policing at the local level, where you have Aboriginal community police officers involved, Aboriginal elders involved, working in a constructive way, then they make big differences in our community.
DANIEL JAMES: I guess the concern, Minister, as sort of pointed out in the recent Productivity Commission report on Closing the Gap is that there is a rise in the number of Indigenous children being jailed around the country. Are you concerned that more policing will lead to more children being locked up?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I'm certainly concerned that we are seeing more youth going into corrections centres across the country. I visited Banksia in Western Australia, in Perth, to listen to the kids themselves and talk to me. I have requested to go into the corrections here in the Northern Territory. It's important to me to work within our justice system and with the Attorney‑General on how we are travelling with the justice reinvestment section, Daniel. I don't want to see the high incarceration rates keep rising, but when you have pieces of legislation in different jurisdictions, especially like here in the Northern Territory, that only have the outcome of prison, it is an incredibly deeply worrying position. Yes, I am worried about that.
DANIEL JAMES: You mentioned the Coalition of Peaks earlier on, which represents Aboriginal organisations around the country, some 800. They have stated that they are concerned that states and territories aren't taking Closing the Gap seriously. Do you agree with that assessment?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I had my first meeting with all the Indigenous Affairs Ministers plus the Coalition of Peaks, Daniel, and we met in Perth in November. And I did raise, along with Pat Turner, in Perth that we had to look at the issue of remand, and I tasked the Indigenous Affairs Ministers to go back to their Cabinets and look at the issue of remand in their jurisdictions. There were too many and still too many, First Nations families, individuals, youths in our remand, let alone in the corrections centres themselves. So that was one thing. And I would say that I have heard - to answer your question - I have heard what the Coalition of Peaks have said about the state and territory governments, which is why I've now begun my work closely with them.
DANIEL JAMES: So, since that meeting, though, some states have passed more regressive policy when it comes to youth justice and holding more children in remand. I mean, is that an alarming thing for you to hear as Minister for Indigenous Australians?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I'm very aware of the fact that each state and territory parliament makes their laws. What I can do in the purview that I have as Indigenous Affairs Minister is continually remind Indigenous Affairs Ministers of their roles and responsibilities but at the same time talk to my Cabinet colleagues. Because Indigenous Affairs and the issue of Closing the Gap isn't just on Indigenous Ministers. This has to be a collective responsibility of every single Cabinet in every single parliament of Australia. And I'm very determined to make sure that every single Cabinet in this country knows that.
DANIEL JAMES: We recently had Senator Lidia Thorpe on the podcast and she argued that Closing the Gap targets should be scrapped altogether, that they are a distraction and that nothing ever changes. What's your response to that?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: As I said, when I first came in as Minister, I invited, across the parliament, Senators and Members to join me to work on Closing the Gap. Senator Thorpe has been invited on those three occasions that we have held those meetings and has not attended. So, it's disappointing that when there’s an opportunity to actually be involved, to work collectively, to put the pressure collectively on others, that that has not occurred. I still encourage Senator Thorpe to do that but I certainly don't agree with dismissing 800, at least, Aboriginal organisations across this country and their request for us to get this right.
DANIEL JAMES: Minister, thank you so much for your time.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Thank you, Daniel.