LARISSA BEHRENDT, HOST: This is Speaking Out, I'm Larissa Behrendt. It's been more than 12 months since the failed referendum on an Indigenous Voice to Parliament. In the time since, many Australians have been looking for clarity as to what the national agenda will be for Indigenous affairs moving forward. Malarndirri McCarthy has been working in politics for more than two decades. In 2016, she was elected as a Senator for the Northern Territory. Before entering politics, she was a successful journalist and broadcaster. Her family come from the Gulf country in the Top End, where she grew up in the remote town of Borroloola. In her first speech to Parliament, she highlighted the struggles of recognition and land rights for First Nations people. She's also been outspoken on issues such as domestic violence and alcohol abuse in the Northern Territory. Earlier this year, she was appointed Minister for Indigenous Australians, a position previously held by Linda Burney until she announced her retirement from politics. I sat down with Minister McCarthy to get a sense of what she hopes to achieve in the role. Malarndirri, welcome to Speaking Out.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Lovely to join you Larissa, and a big hello to your listeners.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: So let's start. For people who don't know you and your back story, where did you grow up and what influenced your world view?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I grew up in a place called Borroloola, which is 1,000 kilometres southeast of Darwin, and my family are the Yanyuwa Garrwa people there. But we're also very closely linked with the Marra and Gudanji peoples, and that's on my mother's side, Larissa, and my father was a Sydneysider who was a school teacher in the Northern Territory for over three decades.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: And what influenced your world view to give you sort of such a, I guess, such a sense of community commitment, wanting to make a difference?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I'd say, with my parents, when I think of growing up, I had the wonderful opportunity of being with my mother and my grandparents on my mother's side and really get a good sense and understanding of my roles and responsibilities in the Yanyuwa and Garrwa family groups. It's really important to certainly know the songs and stories of our country, we call that gujingga in terms of the song lines, and to listen to the stories, of not just early days for First Nations people in the Gulf region, but even beyond that with our relationship with the Macassans and how the Macassans would trade with the Yanyuwa right up till the 1900s. And that was our story and is our story. And so I grew up with that. And on my father's side, he was very passionate about all of us as children being educated in a western world and making sure that we knew two ways education.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: Now, of course, there's a lot to talk about in terms of your political career and your priorities, but I just wanted to take a moment to reflect on the time that you spent as a journalist. Many blackfellas listening will know that because you were such a big presence when you were working as a journalist covering Indigenous stories. But during that time, what sorts of insights did that work give you into the world around you?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I loved reporting, Larissa. I loved working in the world of journalism, as tough as it was when I first entered as an 18-year-old, I felt as a storyteller, as a Yanyuwa storyteller with my families, it was a very natural fit. I also felt that a lot of the images and stories I saw were quite negative, and that wasn't the world that I lived in and the world that I understood. And I felt that being a part of working in media was about trying to influence the fact that our stories are strong, our stories need to be heard and we need to still strive and thrive in the midst, the challenges of whatever was being faced at that time. One of my early stories was covering the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. And that was a really challenging time.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: Actually, I had an opportunity to go back through the archive for a film I'm putting together at the moment and look through extensively, particularly from a Yolngu perspective on the Howard era. And I was struck by how often your reporting came up in that, particularly around the Northern Territory intervention and it was actually a really important reflection that Indigenous journalists do see stories from a different perspective and do find a way to hear alternative voices that might not be heard in the mainstream.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: And that was really important to me, and I am so proud to see the many First Nations journalists, editors, camera operators and photographers across the country now Larissa, that was certainly not the case when I first began. You could probably count it on one hand, if not two, and to see now the television stations that are up, the radio stations that are up, you know, does make me feel very proud. And I do want to thoroughly support First Nations media in Australia because I do believe we should always have a strong voice coming through in all those stories.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: You can do a lot by telling those stories as a journalist, but you've moved into politics where you can have a very different impact. What drew you to make that change?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I felt that after, you know, about 16 years in journalism and travelling across the country, I'd also spent time at Borroloola setting up community radio and teaching arts and media training to family groups there to try and, I guess, improve community development, but also to provide a radio station which was absent in the Gulf country. And there is a radio station now there, which I was able to establish. And I just felt that it was time to perhaps do more, and I wanted to see if I could do more. I felt I'd been fortunate enough to cover the stories across the country, and now I felt I wanted to see if I could help find answers to some of these complex questions.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: Who were your political heroes?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I'd have to say Marion Scrymgour, when she first came in as the first Indigenous woman in the Northern Territory Parliament, I was incredibly inspired by the fact that we now had a black woman in the Parliament. That was, that made a massive impression on me. I was also inspired by the fact that you had people like John Ah Kit, who was doing his best for the people of Arnhem. And I just felt, if they can do it, I can. And I do believe that mantra, where sometimes it is, it's what you see, right? You can be what you can see. And I just felt, yeah, okay, maybe I can give it a go. So, when John Ah Kit retired, I put my hand up for the seat of Arnhem.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: What did it mean for you to be appointed Minister for Indigenous Australians?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: It was incredibly humbling and a great honour, and it is a great honour. I mean, every day I seriously wake up and think, you know, what can I do today to try to improve the lives of those I'm here to serve in this country, and I take that with great sincerity. It'll be 20 years next year when I first put my hand up for politics. So, you travel this road for a particular reason, and mine has always been to try and work with all people, irrespective of their political leanings and ideology, and irrespective of their different viewpoints or concerns and criticisms. I just believe very firmly in a healthy democracy. And I think that when you put your hand up, it's about upholding a healthy democracy in our country and listening to others, but finding the road that brings us together. We can certainly see the differences in one another and we often point too much to our differences, but I like to look for what is it about us that brings us together.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: There's certainly so much that's covered in your portfolio, but from your perspective, what are some of your key priorities? What are you hoping to achieve?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: My first priority was really to reach out across the Parliament to all political leaders, in particular the members of the Opposition, the Greens, the crossbenchers, especially after we saw what happened with the referendum and the weaponisation of the referendum. My perspective comes obviously from the Parliament perspective and what I witnessed throughout that time and the language that was used to really cause great harm, in my view, to the discourse, to the public discourse around the Uluru Statement from the Heart. And I wanted to reach out across the aisle to everyone and just say, look, we've got to be very careful about the language we use. And I do believe we have to come together to find a common path. And to me, it was really about trying to get Closing the Gap back on track.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: The Albanese Government has also announced the formation of a National Commission for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children and Young People, something that I know the community has been advocating for, for a really long time. What are you hoping it will achieve?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I certainly commend the stakeholders who are involved in advocating for it, in particular SNAICC, the Secretariat of National Aboriginal and Islander Child Care. It is about two things as far as I'm concerned. Reducing the out of home care numbers that we see of First Nations children, but also the high rates of detention of First Nations young people. We are 29 times more likely to see First Nations children in detention than any other Australian child. And I'd like to think that once we establish this position, we will see that Children's Commissioner for First Nations Children and Young People concentrate on those two particular areas.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: The issue of youth crime in the Northern Territory has been the focus of intense media scrutiny over the past couple of years. Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy, has outlined a strategy to address the issue with a focus on improving family life, housing and education. From your perspective, as somebody who knows the Territory well, who grew up there, who's reported on the ground and has been in politics, from your perspective, what is the appropriate response that we should be taking to issues like youth crime?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, there's a number of angles, I think, on this one, Larissa, and one is obviously the family. We need to have a holistic approach to how we assist families with whatever challenges they may be going through. We must be able to have jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. To see the lack of jobs in regional, remote Australia in particular is deeply worrying. But we've got to have jobs. We need to find the pathways, and housing, you know, unless we have the number of houses that are required, we're going to consistently have overcrowding and homelessness. And we know the health issues that come from lack of housing.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: There's been a whole range of agendas in Closing the Gap and just in that holistic response that you gave, you've touched on a couple of those areas, employment, housing, education, etc. What do you hope - you've mentioned that Closing the Gap is a big priority for you, what are you hoping to do that might lead to some more positive results than we've seen in the past from that agenda?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I'd certainly like to think the Justice Reinvestment policy that we brought into the previous election, we are now seeing 20 of the 30 initiatives that we said we would roll out being rolled out across the country, and that's important. And that justice initiative or Justice Reinvestment Initiative is about trying to reduce these numbers of youth. And not just youth, obviously there's high rates of incarceration of First Nations people more broadly, and we need to ensure that there are other alternatives, other than being incarcerated, Larissa.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: You mentioned earlier the impact of the referendum, as you said, from the parliamentary position. But you would have seen the impact, of course, in the community and in our community and more broadly. And I wonder what your reflections are on the referendum now, a year on. How do you read the result? I mean, a lot of people took it very negatively. So, I'm wondering how you read the result and where do you see some hope?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well, I certainly see the result as one that was incredibly disappointing for those who were voting yes. And I felt that that was going to be a very difficult mountain to climb back up from. What I did see that was incredibly affirming was the high numbers of yes in remote and regional Australia. And for me, working in the Northern Territory or representing the Northern Territory as Senator, it was really heartening to see that those First Nations communities were really strong. In fact, you saw the numbers in their 90s in terms of 90 percentage points, over to Palm Island and over to the Kimberleys, we had such high numbers. So, that was very affirming. But, of course, the despondency and disappointment has been deep. What I think now, in terms of my role as Minister for Indigenous Australians, is we just have to move forward and we have to keep moving forward. We are resilient people, Larissa. We've been disappointed on numerous occasions over decades, if not centuries, and we're still here and we're not going away. And I know that there's incredible passion to ensure that we just keep moving forward.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: I know a question a lot of people ask is, if the referendum on the Voice has failed, what does that mean for the other two pillars of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, the treaty and truth-telling? What's your answer to that? How should we be looking at that agenda now?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Well I know that there are still many supporters. In fact, if you talk to Aunty Pat Anderson and Megan, you know, they would highlight the six million Australians who voted yes. From my perspective, in terms of the Labor Government, we remain committed to the principles; voice, treaty, truth. But where I come from on this, Larissa, is when we look at the weaponisation that occurred, in particular through the referendum, there is no way I would want to see that occur with truth-telling. And I think it's important that each state and territory jurisdiction that is embarking on their journey, I would encourage them to continue to do so. And in terms of the federal level, we still need to see what the outcome and what people feel about moving forward on truth-telling is. On the 15th, there is a Truth and Justice Bill, that will go out to a Senate inquiry on 15th October and travel across the country. So, this is an opportunity now for Australians to be able to tell the Senate what they want, and the Federal Government will be watching.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: As you said, the discussion, the political discourse around the referendum got very heated and had a real negative impact on many First Nations people. Increasingly shows the challenges of being an Aboriginal person in public life. And I wonder what your advice is for particularly younger First Nations people who are listening, who are interested in making a contribution, but perhaps look at that toxic environment, the trolling on social media, and wonder whether it's a space for them.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: I will always encourage Australians to stand for political office Larissa. If this is what you would want to do, don't ever be discouraged. If you have a real passion to want to represent, and if you are certainly a First Nations person in this country and you want to represent, I think it's important that you have a go. I think it's really important you do. The more people have a go, the more goodness there is in the intent behind why you're trying to have a go. It matters, and it makes a difference to the landscape, and it makes a difference to the political arena and the political debate. I have encountered numerous people, whether they're politicians or whether they're constituents, you know, from very fierce political ideologies. But you still stand firm behind the values that you hold and you put your case. And I would encourage those listening never shy away from stepping forward if this is what you would like to do.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: As someone who continues to make your own really important, profound contribution to public life, what gives you strength? How are you able to weather the tides of that environment?
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: Look, I think it's, it's pretty simple for me, Larissa. I love what I do. I love my family for supporting me in doing it. And I love our country, Australia, you know, with all its imperfections. I love the fact that we have opportunities here and we can make more opportunities for others to walk that road with us. It's what keeps me going.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: Well, thank you so much for continuing to be an advocate, continuing to be strong, continuing to put your views forward, and for spending time with us on Speaking Out.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY: My pleasure. Thank you, Larissa.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: That's my conversation with Minister for Indigenous Australians Malarndirri McCarthy. She's worked tirelessly for the advancement of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, and I'm sure she'll make a meaningful impact in her new role.