ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Joining me now from Darwin is the Assistant Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy. Thanks so much for your time, Minister. Can I ask first about just this Greg Craven matter? What's your view of this in terms of the No pamphlet? Is it a bit of a storm in the tea cup in respect to the fact they have said he's a voice supporter and these are his actual words that they've quoted, they haven't dated it, but he did say this.
NT SENATOR MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Well, it's clearly up to Professor Craven, how he wishes to handle that. Obviously, it sounds like he's enormously disappointed that he's being quoted in the No case when he does support the Yes case. But these are matters for Professor Craven. I guess it's also another example of how the pamphlet doesn't have to be corrected, as Commissioner Rogers has said there from the AEC. So no doubt it's very disappointing for him.
CLENNELL: He's the one who mentioned parking tickets and submarines in terms of the voice. I interviewed him earlier and he said, well, that could be the case. The advisory body could could advise on those things. What do you say to that?
MCCARTHY: But I don't think that was the quote is it that is in the no pamphlet. I think if it's anything, it's Professor Craven trying to put a case as to what he thinks a voice to Parliament is about. And in terms of his particular position, he says that he supports it.
CLENNELL: Okay, Well, let's have a talk about the Yes pamphlet now. It seems to me it's less about the word voice and more about constitutional recognition and listening. The word listening is used a lot. Do you think this pamphlet does enough to turn some people around?
MCCARTHY: Well, it's one avenue, Andrew. The pamphlet is one avenue to give Australians an opportunity to read about the Yes case and what it is that led to this journey. You will see in the Yes pamphlet that it began in 2017 in terms of the Uluru dialogues, the dialogues that led towards Uluru, but also the reasons behind it. So to make it very clear that it's a voice that comes from First Nations people. It's not something that was generated in Canberra, though there have been reports along that line. So the pamphlet does identify a bit of the history, but also what the future could possibly look like.
CLENNELL: One of the focuses of the Yes pamphlet is that the voice could actually help save money. Can you expand on that?
MCCARTHY: Well, this is about the inclusion of First Nations people, Andrew. If we are successful in the referendum, the pamphlet focuses on the fact that there are enormously strong outcomes in the areas of the rangers, for example, and the fact that they're very much included in decision making along with the Aboriginal community health sectors across Australia. We've seen certainly with COVID, Andrew, how pivotal that was in terms of their involvement. And so really what this request to Australians is to enshrine a voice to Parliament to enable First Nations people to always have a say around legislation and policies that impact them.
CLENNELL: All right. Let me read you some of the no pamphlet. It says, quote, 'We all want to help Indigenous Australians in disadvantaged communities. However, this voice is not the answer and presents a real risk to our system of government. The voice specifically covers all areas of executive government. This means no issue is beyond its reach. The High Court would ultimately determine its powers, not the Parliament. It risks legal challenges, delay and dysfunctional government.' What's your reaction to that?
MCCARTHY: We've seen through the parliamentary inquiry that was held, Andrew, that many constitutional experts have put their position and we've had it tested on so many levels with constitutional experts who say that this will and even the highest law officer in the land, Mark Dreyfus, has listened to the Solicitor General who said that this will enhance Australia by being able to do this. So we do believe that this is a very simple road, a simple gesture by the First Nations people to see their lives improved. I mean, we only have to look at closing the gap, you know, month after month of reports. We've got to see something different. I don't want our future Australians to be dealing with closing the gap.
CLENNELL: Are you saying, though, there's pretty much a guarantee it won't clog up the High Court?
MCCARTHY: What I'm saying is that we've listened to the experts who've provided the advice. As I said, the solicitor general has said that this will enhance our processes in terms of the Australian Parliament and the relationship with First Nations people, and I think that is enough to be able to listen to that and have confidence that we can do this.
CLENNELL: All right. We had Kerrynne Liddle from the Opposition on yesterday and she said that you can't even tell us if people will be elected or appointed to the Voice. Can you give us an answer on that today?
MCCARTHY: Yeah, sure. Look, I was in the Parliament in terms of the Senate committee, Andrew, where we debated this into the early hours of the morning up to about 4 a.m., talking about the fact that if we are successful in this referendum, then it will be the role of the Parliament and legislators to determine all of the outcomes in terms of the model and in terms of how we're going to reach regional and remote communities across Australia in terms of that representation right across the board.
CLENNELL: The PM told us yesterday it will be a short, sharp campaign. Does that indicate you're potentially staring down defeat here?
MCCARTHY: Not at all. I mean, you know, we look at campaigns across the country. I've done many in the Northern Territory and now federally as well. Australians are pretty tricky about campaigning. They certainly don't like it to go for a long time. So it makes a lot of good sense actually, that the Prime Minister has expressed the view that it won't be a long campaign. I think that's important for Australians to know.
CLENNELL: Just finally will the Government seek to legislate the voice if the referendum is unsuccessful, or would that be it?
MCCARTHY: My focus is just to make sure we get it to as many Australians as we can. Andrew. I really do want to see us win this. I do want to see a yes outcome, and that's all I'm staying focused on now.