RAFAEL EPSTEIN, HOST: How important is this vote to you personally?
NT SENATOR MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Oh, look, it is such an incredible sort of time, I guess. Certainly for myself, my families, you know, and I'm quite excited, you know, with the announcement today and look forward to the next six weeks of reaching out even more to all Australians everywhere in the hopes that we get a yes outcome.
EPSTEIN: Do you think you will?
MCCARTHY: I will keep working on it. I've used the analogy of a bit of a footy final actually, Ralph, I think that we're in the final quarter and this is really the grand final and you give it your best shot and you do everything you can to encourage people to support you along the way. And you know people like Michael Long who are inspiring me, they're walking from Melbourne to Canberra, Pat Farmer who did their run around Australia, You know, there are some amazing Australians already who have inspired, even the Matildas have inspired me and I'm using all of that energy for these next six weeks.
EPSTEIN: I want to get on to some really important basic propositions, but just a political question first. So the polls are terrible. If these polls, if you had these polls for a regular election, you'd be sort of pulling your fingernails out, wouldn't you? I mean, the polls are bad. No?
MCCARTHY: Well, where I'm traveling, I'm not receiving that, and I can only gauge where I'm going and the responses that I'm getting as I travel across the country and into regional and remote areas. We have to give this a go. I feel very strongly about that. And, you know, we had very negative polls in 2019 when we were going into the federal election. So we had very positive ones, I should say, and it came out to the negative. And so from then on, I've learned very, very quickly that you have to get the heartbeat of the country. And the only way to do that is to get out and talk to people.
EPSTEIN: What's the voice for? What would you say the voice is for?
MCCARTHY: Well, the voice is to enable First nations people to advise the parliament and the executive on issues that impact them. You know, I look at closing the gap, for example. I also have the Assistant Minister Indigenous health portfolio. So I deal with a lot of the health issues with Mark Butler as our Health Minister and the fact that we lose so many First Nations people to suicide and the fact that our babies are born not at the right birth weight- we have stillbirths at twice the rate of our fellow Australians. So we've got to look at things from a really targeted point of view. I don't want the next generation of Australians to deal with closing the gap. They're going to have their own problems. But I don't want closing the gap to be their problems.
EPSTEIN: And if you think the Government needs to listen to a voice, why does that voice need to be in the Constitution? Why can't it just be legislated?
MCCARTHY: Well, there was an opportunity for, you know, people to look at that in the last six years from when the Uluru statement from the heart was put forward to the Australian people. And none of that was done. And when we went to the election last year, we knew that the Uluru statement from the heart was a request for it to be enshrined so that First Nations people didn't have to be a political football to different parties that came into government, that those policies impacting them would remain firm, that they could advise consistently and not be stripped of that voice.
EPSTEIN: What are you saying then? In the last six years, are you saying if that was a good idea to legislate it, the coalition would have done it. Is that what you mean?
MCCARTHY: Well, the coalition is saying now that they want to legislate. But what I'm saying is that they had that opportunity in the last six years to move this and progress this and listen to our First Nations people. And they did not do that. Ken Wyatt, to his credit, tried to do that in terms of taking the statement to the cabinet, as he said on numerous occasions, and it didn't occur. And what First Nations people at Uluru had asked from the Uluru statement have asked is for it to be enshrined. I know from my perspective as Senator for the Northern Territory, when policies like the Northern Territory intervention occurred into the Northern Territory, there was no consultation whatsoever and that left First Nations people quite traumatized for many, many years. So I think, you know, we've got experiences on the ground that say whoever's in power, whether it's Labor, whether it's Liberal, whether it's another party, if it's enshrined and protected in the Constitution, it enables First nations people to continue to work with the issues that impact them.
EPSTEIN: Malarndirri McCarthy is who you're listening to. She's Assistant Minister for Indigenous Australians, so she's a big part of Anthony Albanese's federal Labor government and of course has real skin in the game, being a senator for the Northern Territory and a First Nations woman herself. I guess the significant argument that comes from your government and from those who proposed the voice is that most Indigenous leaders, most significant indigenous organizations support the idea. How do we know that's the case? I think people get very confused. I mean, Warren Mundine and Jacinta Price are very high profile. I think a lot of people look at the debate and go 'well indigenous communities are split 50-50. Who should I listen to?' How should those outside of the First Nations community hear that division inside it?
MCCARTHY: I would say to all Australians this: that this is an opportunity to look at the structural change that could occur here to empower First nations people to A) be recognized in the constitution and B) through the Voice as the vehicle to do so. And it is really a simple request, you know, in terms of the advisory committee. There will always be different views on different points of whatever the debate may be, but I'd ask all Australians to look very closely at what is being said and really take home the message that we can create a better future to enable First Nations people to live lives like other Australians.
EPSTEIN: Do you think people like Jacinta price and Peter Dutton are good faith actors in this. Your government's accused them of misinformation... but do you think Jacinta Price and Peter Dutton are playing by the rules.
MCCARTHY: I'd say this as I've said consistently, I firmly believe that a yes outcome is the best outcome for us going forward in terms of this debate, And I have encouraged and will continue to do so. Whether its Senator Price, whether it's the Opposition leader, those people who are hard No's, I will continue to reach out and express the importance of saying 'Yes' here. I'm not about name calling I never have been. I think one of the most important points of this referendum is we are a democracy and there must be the utmost respect for that democracy whether people vote yes or whether they vote no. That's what a democracy is about, and I'm incredibly passionate about that. But I would ask that people do it in the right way. And I think as Australians, we've shown we have the character to rise above misinformation and disinformation, and I think Australians will prove that on polling day.
EPSTEIN: Do you think we've been divided by the debate?
MCCARTHY: Well, it's a referendum. So of course, you're going to have different viewpoints. We shouldn't be afraid of that. What we should do now with six weeks left is to encourage people to come together. And I'm doing that and I'll certainly keep encouraging people to come with us. This will be better for our country and I ask you to vote yes.
EPSTEIN: Do you think you've been disadvantaged by proposing an idea? And then your opponents say, Well, give us the details we can't talk about a concept unless we understand how it works. Has that put you at a disadvantage?
MCCARTHY: It's interesting you use the word disadvantage, though, that is actually at the crux of this, that First Nations people are the most disadvantaged in this regard when we talk about Closing the Gap, and so naturally, we've had to over many decades, for example, if you look at the changes in the Northern Territory, if you look at progress, we heard it today with the Premier talking about the rights for women to vote. We know that there will always be some kind of opposition to an idea and this one, I think is such a beautiful idea. You know, it embraces our country. It looks at the future for our children and it says, yes, we can do this together. And I feel that I just have to keep talking to people about how I view it and how I see it, because I do believe in that.
EPSTEIN: And you think you will win?
MCCARTHY: Giving it my best shot like any footy grand final, you've got to get out there and you've got to play your hardest, but you still got to be able to shake hands at the end of the day.
EPSTEIN: Yeah, that's very true. Final territory question, if I can. We've had a few people concerned that your territory, the Northern Territory, and the ACT - you don't get counted, you get counted in the national vote, you don't get counted in the state vote. There's two votes for a referendum. Are you concerned about that? Would you like to change that in the distant future?
MCCARTHY: Oh, my favourite topic. I want to see the territory become a state one day. Wouldn't that be awesome? But it's not a conversation for now. Look, I'm very aware that as I go around the territory and remind people that their vote matters just as much as any other Australian, of course, we'll be counted in the overall count along with the ACT. But of course we are not considered in the double majority, you know, but maybe that's something we can look at in the future.