JENNETT: His life in his own way, Yunupingu inspired or advised scores of influential Australians to address Aboriginal disadvantage, not least through the Garma Festival. Among those whose life was touched in many ways by the movement he helped create is Northern Territory Senator and Assistant Minister for Indigenous Australians Malarndirri McCarthy. She joins us live from Darwin. Welcome back, under what might be difficult circumstances, I imagine Malarndirri McCarthy we're talking to you sooner than we had anticipated when we last had you on and extend our condolences for that. Seeing you dancing with Yunupingu and others at Garma, you've attended countless of them. I'm going to suggest that perhaps you were more connected than any or many of the current crop in the Parliament. So what memories do you hold on to today?
MCCARTHY: Thank you, Greg. It's certainly a very, very sad time up here in the Northern Territory at the moment. And in fact, right across the country, for many people who've had dealings with the Yolngu people and certainly that old man. My sincere condolences to the families of north east Arnhem Land. And my sincere gratitude for sharing him with us with the rest of the country to achieve momentous occasions and historic ones for all Australians. And my memories are on so many levels, both a personal one and certainly a political one.
JENNETT: What was the last occasion that you saw him? I'm imagining Garma of this year, but perhaps something even more recent. We'll get to the specifics of what happened at Garma this year in just a moment. But was that the most recent personal contact?
MCCARTHY: Yes, it was, Greg. It was actually Garma at the end of last year. And it was not long after we'd had the federal election. So it was an incredibly important occasion for Prime Minister Albanese to get onto Yolngu country with the old man and commit as he had, to the referendum.
JENNETT: Do you think he had and we've already observed that he had so much contact with successive political leaders, generations of them, at all times. Do you think he maintained confidence in the democratic process that is, in your case, the Federal Government of Australia, to carry through and implement the land rights and ultimately treaty recognition that he so long sought? Or was that confidence tested at times?
MCCARTHY: Well, there was no doubt that it was quite groundbreaking when the Northern Land Council and other land councils of the Northern Territory came into being as a result of the 1976 Aboriginal Land Rights Act. That came into being because of the work of of Yunupingu and so many other First Nations leaders, and that was a time of great change, but also optimism and hope for the future and get an understanding of the deep challenge facing systemic resistance against what many did not like to see in terms of Aboriginal land rights going back to Aboriginal people. So he really led a movement of all our generations. I grew up, I was only a young girl at the time when he was chairman of the Northern Land Council. I remember those occasions and then meeting him when I was was a journalist, obviously doing stories and then obviously on a closer and more personal level, he assisted us as Yanyuwa people of Borroloola in our fight as the first First Nations people to fight for country under the Aboriginal Land Rights Act. And that took us over nearly four decades.
JENNETT: And it got a momentum for all sorts of reasons. There's the political element that I've referred to in my questions. Then there's the cultural part that later comes through Garma and other exercises. Do you think it was intrinsic to his plan that all of this was to work together to raise awareness of the plight of Indigenous Australians more broadly beyond what was happening within those local communities in the NT?
MCCARTHY: Well, he was always well regarded and highly respected as someone who was a bit of a visionary. You know, you asked in your previous question did he feel a bit fatigued? I guess towards the end of his years he got very frustrated with different prime ministers, with different policies. I know at the time, even with the 2007 intervention into the Northern Territory, Greg, I remember getting a blasting from him at Garma that, you know, there was a view from Yolngu leaders that they felt we who were in the Northern Territory parliament at the time didn't stand up for the Northern Territory when the intervention came in and there was a lot of hurt and anger. So I've seen I've been at the end of a lot of goodness and certainly a lot of growth. And I would have found that particular time as one of real learning for me.
JENNETT: Do you think it changed your mission, your purpose in politics and the way you go about your job?
MCCARTHY: It certainly was a moment in time for me where I was learning a lot. I certainly learnt from him as a leader, the good and the bad in terms of how he how he saw the policies that we had, whether it was at a territory level or whether it was at a federal level. And I know that he also understood the balance that those of us who are First Nations politicians, when we try to walk the two worlds. You know, I try and take with me the Yanyuwa Garrawa families of my area through through the way I conduct myself and in my cultural knowledge of that. But I'm also mindful that there is a broader world view. And he was very good at being able to have conversations around that.
JENNETT: It brings us back Malarndirri McCarthy to August Garma, last year. There was that contact with Prime Minister Albanese, which he's recounted again today. What did you take from that about Yunupingu's confidence around The Voice. Obviously he's eager that he'd advance from here, but did express confidence in its success.
MCCARTHY: Well, I certainly got a sense that there was a finality to a journey that he's been fighting for so long, Greg, that he saw in Prime Minister Albanese someone who he could believe in and trust in when he came to Garma to say that we were going to a referendum in terms of the voice and following through on the Uluru Statement from the Heart. And I know that the Yolngu people, when they went to Anangu country in 2017 to support the Uluru Statement, I know that this old man carried that very deeply.
JENNETT: I don't want to inject too much of the day to day politics in this reflection Malarndirri McCarthy but it would have escaped most people's attention that it's been announced the Liberal Party room will gather here on Wednesday. Julian Leeser has addressed the National Press Club and he's raised the question why would you want to risk the social harmony of the nation if success is not guaranteed in the voice referendum? Can that be guaranteed and does that guarantee require compromise on the wording?
MCCARTHY: Oh, look, on this day of deep reflection for certainly us up here, Greg, I would say to Julian Leeser, who I've worked with closely over the years, we even went to Antarctica together. I would say to Julian, why would you risk the journey that you have travelled on with us and with First Nations people by saying no to supporting a bipartisan approach?
JENNETT: And can compromise ensure that he doesn't go down that path?
MCCARTHY: Well, we've always known that winning referendums in this country is not easy, Greg. We've said that on numerous occasions. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
JENNETT: All right. Malarndirri McCarthy, under the circumstances, we greatly appreciate you giving us your thoughts and reflections today. What I think are difficult circumstances for you and please pass on our condolences to all.