GREG JENNETT, HOST: One of four weeks of parliamentary sittings during the voice referendum has now drawn to a close. It hasn't led to too many voice related debates flaring up in the Parliament, but to check in on progress. Assistant Minister for Indigenous Australians Malarndirri McCarthy joined us once again after Question Time wrapped up in the Senate. Malarndirri McCarthy, always good to have you back on the program after a pretty hectic week around the parliament for you senators, let's stop where we always end up anyway, which is on The Voice. I'm sure you managed to capture some of Tony Abbott's article published in The Australian newspaper today where he's targeted an old friend in Noel Pearson. He says if only the Mandela side to his character hadn't been subsumed these past few years by that of a tribal chief waging a guerrilla campaign. Is this indicative, do you think, of a broader trend towards fractured relationships and denigration of Indigenous leaders? A side product of the voice?
NT SENATOR MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Well, we're talking about a former prime minister who no doubt had a very close relationship with Noel Pearson. And I'm sure there are conversations that are perhaps best between two people rather than the whole country having to look into it. And I would expect that the former prime minister actually, Greg, it doesn't go towards giving any confidence across the country that this has risen above, you know, that kind of personal attacks. And as I've said from the outset, and I continue to do so and will do so right up until 6 p.m. of referendum day, we have to be respectful in this debate and that was certainly very low.
JENNETT: I'll take you to some observations of Marcia Langton at the Press Club in just a moment. But one more one on Tony Abbott just to kind of fact check it, I suppose, he says, referring to Makarrata commission that far from being indicative of a peaceful coming together, Makarrata is a Yolgnu word for a retribution ritual, the disabling spearing in the thigh to atone for a wrong. Is that factually correct?
MCCARTHY: Well, Makarrata and certainly my understanding of it as a Yanyuwa woman is the coming together after any form of conflict and to bring about healing and peace, but not without the awareness of what has taken place. And that is a really symbolic coming together. And I would urge certainly the former prime minister to remember and reflect on the many times that he was welcomed at Gulkula in Garma by Yolngu elders. And to not forget within this debate how important those moments were.
JENNETT: So joining the dots between those observations that Tony Abbott makes and the ones that Marcia Langton made, she seems, I think, bothered by the prospect if the referendum proves unsuccessful of her and a whole generation of Indigenous leaders kind of having to remove themselves from the scene for a whole lot of reasons. Some has just been the bruising nature of the abuse that has bubbled to the surface in this campaign. That's a real risk, isn't it? And what sort of loss do you think, if it comes to that?
MCCARTHY: Well, there's been risk from the start of this referendum, as any referendum in this country is so difficult to win, as we've seen historically, Greg. But if I may just digress slightly and just say to Professor Langton how amazing and wonderful this person has been as an elder for decades in this struggle, and to watch her performance at the Press Club and to see the depth of her knowledge, but also her vision for the future is this isn't about people like Professor Langton. She's talking about the future and future Australians. And I would only say this thank you to you and many others like you, Professor Langton, who've brought our country to where we are now at this moment.
JENNETT: Have you had colleagues, respected friends and Indigenous leaders, tap out, as it were, contact you through the course of this year and say, enough already. I would love to have been involved in the final stage of this campaign, but it is too much. Obviously, we've seen someone like Stan Grant move on from the ABC and everyone has their own reasons for doing these things. You know, even if they are indigenous, I'm sure it's not for always the same reasons. But are you aware of people who've kind of walked away because of the tone of debate?
MCCARTHY: Well, we've certainly seen that with Stan. And again, I lament the fact that someone who's achieved as much as Stan has had to come to that conclusion in terms of his relationship, certainly with this broadcast a bit more broadly with the media in general, but he will keep people still on their toes, and I have no doubt about that. But if we talk about ordinary Australians as I'm walking and traveling across the country. No, Greg. In fact, if anything, people have just wanted to know when was the date, what was going to happen, what was the time frame? And if anything, since the Prime Minister made the announcement last week on Kaurna country for the date, there's been this incredible buzz and excitement. You know, people can say this is an historic time and we're just about there.
JENNETT: We've observed on the program this week that this was one of only four parliamentary sitting weeks in the campaign proper period of the referendum campaign. That's counting from when the prime minister named the date last week, at least in the House of Reps. I'm not sure about the Senate. It hasn't been used much as a sparring platform over the Voice. Is that your observation? Do you think some of the political heat, at least in this place, has come out of it?
MCCARTHY: Well, certainly since the Prime Minister made the announcement, there's been so much activity right across the country, and that is rightly so. But I also said at the last sittings that once we got the constitutional alteration bill out to the public, it was then up to the Australian people. And yes, I agree, Greg, there has been an absolute lessening of of that kind of fiery debate we saw certainly for the last six months in the Senate. That's not to say it won't return to some point. We still got another week to go. And I have no doubt that as many senators are watching this as well from from the other side. But look, it certainly does give a sense that, you know, it's spring. You know, there's good feeling in the air. People are feeling upbeat and positive. You know, there's still lots of struggles for Australians across the country, but certainly for First Nations people, we're ready for this and we're looking forward.
JENNETT: I've said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again. Malarndirri McCarthy you are the eternal optimist, but a second referendum, the spectre of one has been raised.
MCCARTHY: I'm not that optimistic. No to a second referendum.
JENNETT: I thought you'd say that, yet, raised by Peter Dutton. And I know you don't want to contemplate the possibility of defeat, but if there were one, would they be any attraction to going back and going back, maybe in conjunction with the next election, saying let's at least come out of all of this with a recognition element into the Constitution?
MCCARTHY: Well, there's two ways to answer that, Greg. Firstly, as I've said all along, I do see this is the final quarter and like any grand final, we've got to get in there and we've got to get in there to win it. And, you know, I guess what I've sadly seen throughout this campaign is the complete misinformation and disinformation as we've gone along. We've heard people like Ken Wyatt talk about how he took to the cabinet, which Peter Dutton was a part of, all of the information from the previous government in terms of this journey and the needs that he wanted to see happen in pushing the Uluru statement further. So the trust factor is a really big one and the fact that that has been absent in this debate with Peter Dutton, I would say that would follow through beyond the 14th of October.
JENNETT: Well, thank you for those observations. As you say, there's a more immediate referendum to deal with. Before we get to questions about the second one.