PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: There is no escaping the resounding and clear decision by Australian voters as a whole to renounce the Indigenous voice to Parliament. But a more forensic look at polling booths shows there was strong support for the voice in some Indigenous remote communities, particularly in those regional and remote areas, as I say. Malarndirri McCarthy is the Assistant Minister for Indigenous Australians and a Senator in the Northern Territory. She joins me now. Welcome back to the program.
SENATOR MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Good morning, Patricia, and good morning to your listeners.
KARVELAS: The Prime Minister promised to implement the Uluru statement from the heart in full. Do you still support the treaty making process and truth telling?
MCCARTHY: Even though there was a no vote for the constitutional recognition of the voice, Patricia we have always been clear that the Uluru Statement from the Heart was really important to us, and today we come together, since the referendum, we've got our caucus this morning and there will be an opportunity for our side of politics to have the conversation. And I would just say also that this is a time this week to respect the fact that there are so many First Nations people and families and communities who are devastated by the no result. And we want to also give them a bit of space to just recover this week as well before we start to embark on our next steps forward.
KARVELAS: But on a personal level, you're also an indigenous woman in the caucus. Do you think that truth telling and treaty process is still an important thing to stick to?
MCCARTHY: I am absolutely of the view personally as a Yanyuwa Garrawa woman, that our history as First Nations people must be at the forefront. We must have a good look at where we go forward through our education systems, through our ability to communicate with one another. One of the things we certainly learned on the campaign was that so many millions of Australians still don't know the First Nations history of our country. So there is a profound amount of work that we can look at. But again, all of these will be discussions we have over the coming weeks.
KARVELAS: One of your colleagues, Labor MP Mike Freelander, said that the campaign ignored outer urban areas and was an echo chamber of elites talking to elites. Do you agree with him?
MCCARTHY Well, I think it's unfortunate that people might feel that way. I do think it's important for there to be a fair, you know, look at what happened. And if that is the case, Mike is well respected in our caucus. And he clearly feels that in his area, things may not have gone the way that he would have liked. But I traveled all over Victoria and the Northern Territory and South Australia and, out of New South Wales to Menindee, to Broken Hill. Certainly there was a reach as best we could as a caucus, but I guess there's lots of questions that can be raised about different areas. But I don't really think, Patricia, that it's helpful to to eat ourselves up on this. The fact remains is that we respect the outcome of the vote. And what we have to do now is move forward and take our country with us.
KARVELAS: There are indigenous people I've spoken to who are really, really upset that the Prime Minister and the Labor leaders haven't attributed some of this result to racism in the community and acknowledged their experience of racism. What's your reflection on that?
MCCARTHY: I think that we recognize in our country that there are many pockets of different views and discourse. And I've certainly experienced different forms of racism at various times throughout my life. Certainly on this campaign, I was very conscious that many people were watching that in terms of social media and what was going on. But I want to remind Australians that we can always point out the negatives of ourselves and our humanity. But what this campaign was about was striving to be the best that we could be with all our imperfections as a country. And that's what this campaign was about. And we focused on that. We believed in that. And, you know, we come out at the end of that knowing that this was not the direction that the majority of Australians wanted to go. But that does not mean that they don't care about First Nations people. It does not mean that they don't want to see that closing the gap happen for First Nations people in this country.
KARVELAS: Do you see the country as racist?
MCCARTHY: I love Australia, Patricia. I love Australia. I love the opportunities that our country can give us. But I think we could have been better. I think we could have been greater if we'd enabled First Nations people to have their voice to the Australian Parliament and so what we have to do now is regroup, reset and go back out at the right appropriate time and work with First Nations people as to what the next steps are.
KARVELAS: You say, the people that the nation you know, you wanted it to be better. But the Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles says the country got it right
MCCARTHY: We respect the outcome. We have to.
KARVELAS: That's democracy. Absolutely. And if he didn't, I'd be very concerned. You have to accept the outcome. But do you think the country got it right?
MCCARTHY: If the outcome says that they don't want to see First Nations people recognized and they don't want to have a voice to the parliament, I find that deeply disappointing. It's not right as a First Nations person to have to keep explaining why your history is important in this country and why we've been here for over 65,000 years. That's not right to have to keep doing that. But we have to obviously keep doing that now because Australians voted no.
KARVELAS: An interim listening mechanism could also be considered by Cabinet to provide advice on First Nations issues directly to the Prime Minister. Do you think that's a good idea.
MCCARTHY: For First Nations issues to go directly to the Prime Minister?
KARVELAS: Through some sort of mechanism of a listening mechanism.
MCCARTHY: Well, I think there's going to be lots of conversations today in particular. As I said, this is our first chance to come together as a caucus, and I think that will be important. There'll be lots of suggestions that go forward from here, Patricia, And no doubt that could be one of them. But at this point in time, we still have to come together as a caucus since the Saturday night results. And we'll have that and we'll be able to get more details after that, to be honest.
KARVELAS: Yeah. Look, I know it's a tough time for Malarndirri McCarthy, and I really appreciate you actually talking to us. I know that it's not easy actually to talk right now, but I do think it's an important conversation for people to hear as well. Look, the Liberals made their opposition to this proposal clear six months ago, right? We knew and we keep hearing from the prime minister and others that you can't get a referendum through without bipartisanship. If you knew it, why did you do it?
MCCARTHY: First Nations people had asked for this interest. So we made a commitment. And when we went to the election in 2022, we took that to the Australian people and in winning the election and that was the mandate they gave us to go ahead with our policies. And First Nations people involved with Uluru Statement from the Heart wanted that. So we took it through because we had this firm belief that Australians would want to see that and we were clearly not correct in that.
KARVELAS: Does that mean you can't disconnected with that part of Australia, the 60% that just didn't see what you were seeing?
MCCARTHY: I think what it shows is that the gap between what First Nations people were asking for and how they see their future is so wide with non-Indigenous Australians. We only have to look at the outcome in the ballots with the booths across Northern Territory, across Queensland, across the Kimberley region. We see it was overwhelmingly in their 60s, 70s,80s 90 per cent 'yes' by First Nations people. So we have to have a look at those figures and see that the gap is really between the understanding, the cultural understanding between what First Nations people are asking for and what, you know, Western society just doesn't see.
KARVELAS: So what does that mean for First Nations people going forward?
MCCARTHY: Well, this will be the conversation we'll have at the appropriate time. But for now, we just want to give them the space that they want and need for that spiritual healing.
KARVELAS: This healing, though, I mean, your government keep saying reconciliation isn't dead. Respected, prominent 'yes' advocate and indigenous academic Marcia Langton says reconciliation is dead.
MCCARTHY: Well, I can only speak from my own cultural background. As a Yanyuwa woman, we are known as Li-Anthawirriyarra, where our spiritual origin comes from the Sea Country. We never give up. We are resilient people. We strive for peace always. And we will continue to do that.
KARVELAS: Will grievance grow in Indigenous communities?
MCCARTHY: Well, that's what we don't want to see. Clearly, it's important that we give people the space and respect now, for the time being. And in due course, we will go back out as members of the Albanese government and talk to people, but also as First Nations people, there's Marion Scrymgour, who works right across the Northern Territory. You know, we've got Gordon Reid, we've got Jana Stewart- outstanding First Nations representatives in here and we will regroup and regather and ensure that there is a way forward that gives hope.
KARVELAS: Is there is there any sympathy from you for the two calls from Peter Dutton, one of them being for a royal commission into child sexual abuse in Indigenous communities, and the other being for an audit.
MCCARTHY: We've been clear on the record in terms of the Royal Commission calls by the Opposition Leader. And in fact, you know, I pointed out earlier in this year that had he been aware of any particular cases, he did need to report those. And also SNAICC, the Secretariat for National Aboriginal Islander Children in this country has also said there have been 12 reports that have been done. Those recommendations can be looked at. So we need to have a look at that. But no, there's no support for a royal commission in my view. But also in terms of the audit, we've also spoken about that in the Parliament that the Australian National Audit Office, rightly so, does the audits on organizations like land councils across the country, and that's the appropriate mechanism. It does that with a lot of organizations across Australia. And so we'll just see what the Opposition are trying to propose.