TOM CONNELL, HOST: Eight days away from a Budget, which will be a significant one. Some reforms that have been debated for many years are going to be in there. And we have heard today from the Treasurer there will be more savings than new spending, which is something I've been asking Patrick Gorman for weeks. He joins me now. The Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman, and former Liberal MP Jason Falinski. Alright, Patrick, I'm going to start with this, now, I'm just going to come to you today as a humble voter. I don't know, picture me in a wine bar with a nice glass of dry white from the Margaret River region. And I just say to you -
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: I struggle to picture that, Tom, but I'll try my hardest.
CONNELL: - I say to you, oh, "g'day, Pat, younger people are really struggling to get into the housing market. It's because of all these investors, isn't it?" Do you agree with that?
GORMAN: I'd say, Tom, it's right that young people should want to, and be able to get into the housing market. And I would say for a young Tom Connell, you're still young, but a slightly younger Tom Connell, I'd say -
CONNELL: I’m just a millennial.
GORMAN: - Here are some of the policies we've already implemented, such as the 5% deposit guarantee and other assistance for first home buyers, including the work we're doing in Western Australia, where we announced -
CONNELL: This is a wine bar room, you can sort of cut today’s spin –
GORMAN: Okay, Tom, we're in Highgate, it’s a wine bar. Maybe we're at Vincent Wine bar in the electorate of Perth.
JASON FALINSKI, FORMER LIBERAL MP: A minute ago he didn’t know what a wine bar was, now he's naming them.
GORMAN: I'll say to you, just on Sunday Minister Clare O'Neil and Premier Roger Cook announced a $2 billion investment for 34,000 more homes in Western Australia. I would say that housing access and supporting housing for the next generation has been a priority of every Labor Budget. And that won't change next week. Tune in.
CONNELL: Tune in. So, is that the answer to my question on investors? That's what I'm getting in the wine bar? Tune in.
GORMAN: Well, because we're friends, Tom, I'd probably buy you a drink.
CONNELL: All right, sounds good actually. I'm not going to go to Perth for it, it's a long way to go for a glass of wine. I'm already distracted. We're only about two minutes in. All right, Jason? Well, what about the same for you? You know, we bump into each other in the Northern Beaches there. Get having a chat. You talk, I ask you, "you know, Jason, you going to run next term?" You brush me off. And I say, what about this Labor policy on, you know, helping investors out? And maybe if they can get the tax discounts for new property only and make sure it's still being built. And I'd say, what about that, Jason? Is that a good idea?
FALINSKI: It's a terrible idea, Tom, because what Labor has done at every part of the value chain is they've made it more expensive to build housing in Australia. They've made it more expensive to hold housing in Australia, they've made it more expensive to invest in housing in Australia, so they've reduced supply, or forward supply. They've increased demand through that really reckless LMI scheme that they've created, which is Australia's version of the Global Financial Crisis. Through industrial agreements with the CFMEU, the National Building Code, they've made it twice as expensive to build houses as it was before they got elected. And of course, let us not forget the $80 billion housing fund that is yet to build a new house, but has acquired 136 houses. What we have today is a situation where if you are a nurse, if you are a police officer, if you are a public servant who wants to invest in housing, it just got a lot harder. But if you're an industry super fund, nothing changed for you. So, what we are going to see is more concentration -
CONNELL: I should mention, on industry super funds, they've always got that 33% discount, so they're not necessarily better off. We'll see what the ultimate changes are. So, I think that's important to put in the mix. What about if it was something that would only apply to new builds, Jason, doesn't that actually funnel any -
FALINSKI: You mean excludes new builds?
CONNELL: - Of those tax advantages towards building new property?
FALINSKI: You mean the new buildings would be excluded? -
CONNELL: Well yeah, keep the changes.
FALINKSI: Right, so, what then you have is a situation where you still have industry super who can still offset the cost of owning a property against its income. Just as an individual, you can't do that. So, once again, you are corporatising the Australian housing market and they will not care, unlike mums and dads, what rent renters have to pay. They will have a return which they will need to meet and they will meet it. So, you will have this extraordinary situation in this country whereby government fiat, your money is taken out of your pay packet and put into a super fund. So, you are less likely to be able to afford to buy a house, but your super fund that has your money will be able to rent a house to you. This is just crazy. This is beyond crazy. And you talk about intergenerational inequity. I mean, this is just actually etching it in stone and making it impossible for the next generation of Australians to have a pathway to prosperity and to build a future for themselves. Look, if this was the Liberal Party doing this, I would call this crazy. I don't understand why the Labor Party is doing it, other than it advantages industry super.
CONNELL: We'll wait to see what the actual changes are, this is my final week of having to come up with these hypotheticals. Anyway, I thought the wine bar might work out. Bit of a different angle. Okay -
FALKINSKI: I was at Vincent's while Pat was in Highgate.
CONNELL: Fair enough. Fair enough. Now, look, probably the most troubling story over the past week, this tragic death of the five-year-old girl in Alice Springs, it puts a spotlight again on the plight of Indigenous children. Pat, the PM says we know the solutions when he's asked about Royal Commission. Oh, we know what the solutions are, but isn't it clear that they're not working? Maybe what we know the solutions are, are not the solutions, if we keep seeing these tragic circumstances?
GORMAN: It is tragic and of course, I think every Australian having watched what has occurred and the news that continues to come out about this horrific loss of life for a five-year-old child, it is heartbreaking. I recognise that the family have said that they want time to grieve. I don't believe when it comes to something as shocking as this, that we should be ruling things out. But I do note that in the remarks you refer to, Tom, what the Prime Minister had said was that we have this $4 billion housing agreement with the Northern Territory that is doing the work that needs to be done to provide housing when it comes to safety -
CONNELL: It's not just a physical house, though, is it?
GORMAN: It’s not.
CONNELL: I want to go to this - Sue-Anne Hunter, she's the National Commissioner for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children and she said now is the time to actually talk about this. Of course, I wouldn't try to encroach anything on what the family's doing, you know, but now is the time. We keep seeing the same things happening, and it's time for action. Will she be listened to?
GORMAN: Minister Malarndirri McCarthy has been in the Northern Territory, speaking with these communities during the search, during the tragedy that's followed. We're already in that conversation. We're not running away from that. We're not avoiding any of the discussion that needs to be had. And of course, after any tragedy like this, you have to look at different policy responses. But again, I think people know that there is significant additional investment going in from the Commonwealth into the services needed in the Northern Territory. We continue to do that work and have that dialogue. I don't believe in, at a time like this, in wanting to rule anything out, I just want to note that there's a lot of work underway. And also when it comes to, increasing support when it comes to early childhood education -
CONNELL: A lot of people have said, you know, it's not just about money being spent, too. The conditions this girl was in and was seemingly allowed to be in remain an inherent issue. Jason, what do you make of calls for a Royal Commission that's within the conservative side of politics. Is that the idea? Is there something more immediate? Do we know what we need to do? We're not willing to do it. What are your thoughts?
FALKINSKI: Well, I agree with the Prime Minister. I think we do know the answers. The problem is we seem unwilling to implement them. And every child, regardless of where they live, has a right to feel safe and secure in their community and their homes. And to live in one of the richest countries in the history of the world, and for this to have happened is just unacceptable. And Patrick talks about every option is on the table. The Productivity Commission in 2024 said Closing the Gap was basically on the verge of complete collapse and failure. We did have a cashless debit card that did seem to - correlation is not causation - but that did seem to massively reduce incidents like this and incidents of general crime in remote communities. It is something that I would hope the government would stand up to its own supporters on, for the sake of these communities and children who live in it and at least consider reintroducing the cashless debit card.
CONNELL: Alright, Jason, I want to ask you about Matt Canavan. He seemed fairly nonchalant over the potential of losing Farrer, this was just people, you know, getting carried away about a politician's job. Does that worry you a bit? The Nats leader not too worried about the fate of the Libs?
FALKINSKI: No, no, I'm not worried. I think Matt's making, look, what I'm hearing on the ground in Farrer is that people want to send a message to Canberra, basically to all major political parties, whether they vote for One Nation or for the teal candidate, Michelle Millthorpe, who is spending more than 15 times all the other campaigns combined. And Tom, as The Australian pointed out on the weekend, Climate 200, the Simon Holmes à Court-backed campaign vehicle, has created a complex web of corporate entities and trusts to hide both who is donating that money and where that money is coming from. But you know, ultimately, voters in Farrer know -
CONNELL: Should the Coalition have brought in real-time donation disclosures, Jason, when they had the opportunity to do so -
FALINSKI: Are we really going over this? No, no, Tom -
CONNELL: Well, you know, we have to guess what's being donated, don't we? We don't know.
FALINSKI: No, no, Tom, my point is, even after elections, like the May ‘25 election we are still -
CONNELL: Even after is irrelevant. It's before when matters -
FALINSKI: Tom -
CONNELL: It's before we vote that matters -
FALINSKI: Tom -
CONNELL: Surely-
FALINKSI: Here we go again –
CONNELL: - Transparency.
FALINSKI: You and I both know that real-time disclosures actually make it more complex to work out who is donating money from where and when. And the political system most polluted by money is the U.S. political system.
CONNELL: I don’t know if I know that.
FALINSKI: Well, you've said it previously, or you've agreed with me when I've said it previously. I do allow you, however, to change your mind, as you know, these are the people who invented real-time political disclosures. My point is, even in 2025 -
CONNELL: That can be done well -
FALINSKI: - We still don't know, or what we do know is there has been massive splitting in money between different Teal campaigns with one primary purpose in mind, and that is to obscure how much money was going into each of those campaigns.
CONNELL: And we don't know any ahead of the time because there's no real-time disclosures, and that's bipartisan. So, I'll be the one in the middle. I'm not ruling out anything I said in the past Jason. I don't recall saying it, but I was going to say your office, you could get AI to figure out what I said after the program.
GORMAN: I've got all the transcripts, Tom, if you want to do some fact checking. Just as I wouldn't mind sending some fact checkers on some of the things Jason said earlier about housing.
CONNELL: Start with Jason, you know, maybe don't start with me -
FALINSKI: Go for it -
CONNELL: Okay, in ten seconds, because I am way behind time -
FALINSKI: Last time we played this game there was a Substack article, yeah, okay -
CONNELL: Okay, so, Pat, in one sentence, who are you barracking for on Saturday night?
GORMAN: Who am I barracking for on Saturday night? I don't know what the footy fixtures are.
CONNELL: Come on, Farrer, don't - give me one sentence.
GORMAN: I'm barracking for some excellent coverage from Sky News. But let's be clear about this. Liberals, Nationals, One Nation. They're all going to end up in a big coalition -
FALINSKI: Sounds like you’re supporting the Teal -
CONNELL: That’s what you tell us your preference is? You’d rather Millthorpe over the Libs? Is that what you’re hoping for?
GORMAN: I’ll leave it to the voters of Farrer. It's an important decision for them who they choose to send to this great place we call Parliament -
CONNELL: We're going to get Pat sitting on the fence -
GORMAN: - I look forward to meeting whoever the new member of Farrer is -
CONNELL: We’ll talk about that next week -
GORMAN: - Just as I rightly respected the former member for Farrer, who quit after some pretty appalling treatment by the Liberal Party.
FALINSKI: Yeah, ok -
CONNELL: On that note -
FALINSKI: - Fortunately, the Labor Party never treats its members badly. That's true.
CONNELL: Jason, Patrick, beautiful note to end on. We'll talk again next week.