PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: I want to bring in my political panel for today. Patrick Gorman is the Assistant Minister for Employment. Garth Hamilton is the Shadow Assistant Minister for Energy Security. Welcome to both of you.
GARTH HAMILTON, SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR ENERGY SECURITY: Thanks for having us.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for having us.
KARVELAS: James Ashby has intervened there to say that the ‘Please Explain’ cartoon shouldn't be commented on by the AFP Commissioner. What's your reaction to that?
GARTH HAMILTON, SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR ENERGY SECURITY: I wasn't aware that One Nation were the victims here. Listening to that language. Pauline making it all about her. James doing the same. Goodness me. Look, I hope people get to see these cartoons. There's two things they realise. One; Pauline isn't the woman in the cartoon. She's actually quite different. She's not as in control and composed as she makes that out to be. The other is, I think people can see for themselves, this is a nasty party. This is a party that does everything to humiliate and denigrate people across the Parliament. And why that's important is voters need to know they're going to cut themselves off from cross-party conversations, that you sometimes need to have in this place. You imagine you've got a One Nation representative, and their party has put their brand on stuff that makes light of women's health issues, in the way that they have. Or treats Charlotte Walker the way that they have. You think there's going to be the ability to have an open conversation when a party does that? I think Australia should see this and see what a party they are.
KARVELAS: The AFP Commissioner, has she overreached - spoken outside of her remit?
GORMAN: No, I support the AFP Commissioner and her right to say what she sees based on the evidence that is before her. And we've seen in recent days commentary about the amount of information that is flowing to the Australian Federal Police. So, I think when you've got the AFP Commissioner being asked a question and they give a straight answer, we should welcome that.
KARVELAS: I suppose Pauline Hanson's statement yesterday was that she, you know, the attack on Helen Haines had nothing to do with One Nation. We don't know anything about what motivated the attacker. We actually don't know and we have to be really clear about that. We don't know. But we've had a broader debate about what politics is looking like. Do you think politics has got more ugly, more aggressive - the debate and tone has changed?
HAMILTON: Look, I think there's probably always going to be debate in politics about being at that right level. About being able to debate something fulsomely but still be able to not make that the end of the conversation. And the Prime Minister said something today that was actually quite good, a disagreement shouldn't be the end of a conversation. You have the disagreement and then you go on to the next thing and you keep working through. And I think that's what people want. But I think relevant to your question is I think people want statespeople, again. Whether it's Labor Party, who look at, I guess, the way Julia Gillard has handled herself after being a Prime Minister. Or John Anderson and the way he articulates conservative values without being attacking, without denigrating the other side. I think we look to those people because they are rare, they are special, they are important to our national debate, and we want more of them. I think people want that. I think people want to see that elevated. We all try; we all fail. But I think that's what people are really looking for.
KARVELAS: What do you think?
GORMAN: I think it has gotten worse, the nature and the style of the debate.
KARVELAS: Why, though? I think we're trying to grapple with why. And there's disagreement on why.
GORMAN: And you've seen this in a range of speeches that were given in the Parliament today. I think we have all played our role in eroding some of the standards that have been upheld by previous iterations of the Parliament. I know that if I look back on some of my behaviour, I would say I was not the best version of myself. And I think you've seen a range of MPs, including the Deputy Prime Minister, even acknowledge that we all have to lift the standard collectively and individually.
The other thing that I've seen that has changed is that, even Members of Parliament or those who participate in our democracy, including the media, could switch off. And what you've got now is that where there is really some of the more awful parts of the political debate happening online - and that follows you home in a way that it didn't when it was media clippings. That it didn't follow you home when someone had to pick up the landline to tell you something. And so that's changed as well. There is a whole range of different changes.
What I hope is that, you know, the Australian public are clearly saying they want a higher standard, they want to raise the standard. And that's a challenge for myself, Garth and all of our colleagues across the Parliament, every party. It's a challenge for all of us to meet. I'm up for that challenge.
KARVELAS: Andrew Hastie in his speech said, 'we don't want this MAGA politics in Australia.' Is that what you think?
HAMILTON: Yeah, very much. I don't think we want this Americanisation of politics. And you know what, it's really interesting, we saw in the Ohio Governor's race with Vivek Ramaswamy deploying that sort of aggressive, quite frankly, horrible tactics -
KARVELAS: Yeah. We need to tell people this story in sort of shorthand -
HAMILTON: When you go hard - angry - people reject it.
KARVELAS: So, in this case, you're right. The Republican campaign has got the mother of the Democratic candidate in a video denouncing her daughter. The daughter is a survivor of a paedophile in the family. It's unthinkable, actually.
HAMILTON: Yep.
KARVELAS: It is quite an alarming story. I'm glad you raised it. I've been quite, like, obsessed with how ugly this is. It's unthinkable.
HAMILTON: It's the worst. I think it's the worst we've seen.
KARVELAS: Yeah.
HAMILTON: And yes, that's the extreme. I don't want us to go anywhere near that. I don't think that's ever been a part of Australian politics. I think we pride ourselves on fighting hard but still being able to talk afterwards. And there's plenty of people on the opposition side who I'm happy to disagree with. But then we'll have a good chat afterwards. And we move on to the next thing, and we keep working together for the Australian people. I don't want to see that MAGA style stuff. I think it's terrible.
KARVELAS: Yeah. That was - I don't know if you're across this story either playing out in the US. It is quite full on. I suppose it's that hyper-personalisation. Playing the person, not the issue, right? And that's what everyone wants to try - it seems not everyone, perhaps - but people want to change. One Nation feel like they're being victimised here. Do you have to be careful of that as well, though? Because a lot of people are saying they want to vote for One Nation.
GORMAN: Yeah. Look, I think you do have to be careful about how you criticise things wherever you see something that doesn't meet your personal standards. Because sometimes my standards are different to Garth's and different for everyone else.
KARVELAS: That's right.
GORMAN: But at the same time, sometimes people do cross a line. I think some of the videos that have been produced on this One Nation, ‘Please Explain’ series crossed that line. And there's a few different ways to deal with that. One is that the public can choose just not to watch them. That's a pretty simple way. I don't watch them because I find them quite gross.
There are other ways where, you know, there used to be a time not that long ago where there were a lot more rigorous standards applied by social media companies, in terms of what they allowed to be shared on their platforms. And I don't think we can let, as a society, the social media companies, who are building a business off the engagement that's driven from some of this pretty gross content - we can't let them off the hook entirely either. Because we all have a role in lifting standards, even those who are currently profiting from the lowering of those standards.
And then, when it comes to the video, I mean, maybe it's just time. You know, not every series needs to run forever. Now, Afternoon Briefing can go forever. It's a very good series. It'll go forever.
HAMILTON: Hear. Hear.
GORMAN: But this cartoon, it might be a bit like the West Wing. First few seasons, it had a place -
KARVELAS: I'm currently watching it. I won't accept the thesis that it should end.
GORMAN: And then maybe the last few seasons, sometimes maybe Senator Hanson, as the producer of this series, can make a tough decision and end it.
HAMILTON: See, I disagree. And look, I've been probably less careful than some in calling out when One Nation have crossed the line. I think it's been important to do so. And I'd hate to think that the tragic events that we saw, you know, over the last weekend would stop us from speaking honestly and robustly. If we are speaking earnestly, I think we need to do that. I think we should be unafraid to point out to people, this is a line I don't think we should cross. I think this is bad. I think there are impacts when you denigrate and humiliate people. And I think that's to the detriment of Australian politics. I think you should be able to say that. I probably am a little bit less careful on that point, but I take Patrick's point. Yeah, people are upset and they're angry. I don’t think we're going to resolve their anger by walking away from big issues.
KARVELAS: No, I think your job is to deal with big issues. If you walked away from big issues, it would be - don't do that. People want you to tackle the big issues. One sentence answers. Do people have the right to be angry, though?
GORMAN: People are allowed to have emotions, right? Anger is an emotion that everyone feels from time to time. So, of course people have a right to be angry. But how you deal with those emotions is important.
HAMILTON: That's two sentences. People don't want to be angry after the election. We don't want to keep this anger going. And I don't think people want this as our long-term way of being Australian. I don't think they do.
KARVELAS: No. Anger is an emotion, but it's one best dealt with, right? And talked about. Thank you very much to both of you. And that's my political panel, Assistant Minister for Employment and Labor MP for Perth, Patrick Gorman, and Shadow Assistant Minister for Energy and Security, Garth Hamilton.