OLIVER PETERSON, HOST: It is time for ‘Behind Party Lines’. And if there is a question you wish to put to our federal pollies today, then the floor is all yours. 1300 221 025, as we are broadcasting right across Western Australia this Wednesday afternoon. In the blue corner is the Senator of Western Australia, the WA Liberal, Dean Smith. Good afternoon.
DEAN SMITH, LIBERAL SENATOR: Good afternoon to you, Oly.
PETERSON: And in the red corner we have the Labor MP for Perth, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman. Welcome to Drive.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for having me, Oly. And good afternoon to your listeners.
PETERSON: Let's start with that idea of the Bicentenary first, gentleman. Have you got any ideas about this? Because obviously the survey's gone out today from the state government. But is there something you would like to see commemorated here in Western Australia in 2029, Dean Smith?
SMITH: Well, I think we can bring it forward, Oly, if my history serves me correctly, in December this year we celebrate 200 years of settlement in Albany when Edmund Lockyer arrived on the ship called Amity. So, I think we can bring forward our 200 or bicentennial celebrations for Western Australia by talking about Albany - celebrating Albany. The story that I love to share with people is that the ship – which in those days was called the Brig. The Brig Amity was the same ship that took European settlers up the Brisbane River and settled in Queensland, which might speak to some of that affinity we often talk about with Queenslanders. But I remember the 150th anniversary celebrations in 1979. I was a primary school kid at Mirrabooka Primary School, dressed up in my pioneer outfit. I think it's a really important opportunity to educate young West Australians about the history of our state, make them feel great about the future. And I'm very, very comfortable. And I think it's probably totally necessary that we blend those celebrations with an appreciation of our Indigenous history as well as Barry House reflected on, you know, the real strengths of what European settlement has brought to our state.
PETERSON: By the way, you still got that outfit?
SMITH: If I did, it wouldn't fit.
PETERSON: Okay, fair enough. Now, Patrick Gorman. Everybody always has ideas, particularly as the Member for Perth, about attractions and things that could be done for a bicentenary in Perth. Here's two which have just come up that I'm going to put to you, before I get your answer. Andrew would like to see an Eiffel Tower type construction made, made from Pilbara iron ore on Langley Park for our bicentennial. While Tony says, ‘hey, Patrick, what about that cable car from Elizabeth Quay up to Kings Park?’
GORMAN: Well, I'm going to disappoint both Andrew and Tony and say that I want everyone firstly, including Andrew and Tony – they have very imaginative ideas. Everyone should contribute to this survey from the state government. Let your imagination run wild. But for me, the foundational principle of what we should do for the Bicentenary is to celebrate our people. Western Australians are remarkable humans, and we have so many great stories to tell. And I think that's how you capture people's imagination about what's possible for the future.
PETERSON: All right. 1300 221 025. This is ‘Behind Party Lines’. Patrick Gorman and Dean Smith with us this Wednesday at sixteen to four. We just heard in the news headlines there with Lucy, Patrick, that in the end on that two-party question, Luke Herdegen managed to secure 57% of the two-party preferred vote there in Secret Harbour. Is this all a reflection on what has happened here in terms of state politics or does your federal government, does the Prime Minister as well have to wear some of the blame here?
GORMAN: I have always got great respect for voters, and I think they knew they were in a state by-election. That was incredibly clear. I will congratulate Luke Herdegen and his team. You know, they won that fair and square. It is not the outcome that I worked for. It is not the outcome that anyone in the broader WA Labor family wanted. But when I look for that, I go, well, that's not the outcome I wanted. So, how do I find the silver lining? And I think the silver lining is, it's a reminder that we have a robust democracy in Australia. It is something we can never take for granted. And the people of Secret Harbour, made a decision democratically and they've sent their representative to Parliament.
PETERSON: Dean, do you read into the same analysis of that of Patrick's?
SMITH: Well, I do agree with Patrick that it's important that we respect the democratic process. No one's raised any questions about the integrity of the electoral process. But the work really does begin now for the One Nation candidate. As Patrick and I can attest to, being a parliamentarian representing people, getting local outcomes for people is very, very important. So, the hard work begins now. It was very, very interesting to read Antony Green's most recent blog on the Secret Harbour by-election, which I think he posted around the 4th or 5th of September. Antony Green, someone I respect, I'm sure you do too, Oly. He just made the observation that there was nothing in this that we didn't already know. We knew that One Nation was polling so strongly. We knew that the Labor Party would poll so badly. I think it does actually speak to cost-of-living pressures in seats in our outer metropolitan area and I’d just remind people that at the last state election there were very large swings already against the Labor Government in Peri-Urban seats surrounding the north and the south of our city. So, cost-of-living pressures continue to be paramount for West Australians and particularly in outer suburban areas.
PETERSON: How does that feel though for Andrew Hastie's chances as the Member for Canning? Because he's come out swinging and did before the by-election, Dean, when you see this result and don't forget it was really a two-horse race between Labor and One Nation – the Liberals finished third. Does it worry you about the prospects of your party heading into the next federal election?
SMITH: Andrew – I think everyone would agree, even Andrew's opponents would agree that Andrew is a very, very strong and effective local member. The election is not today, it's not even this Saturday. It can be held as early as August next year and as late as May the following year. Andrew, I'm very, very confident will continue to perform strongly as a local member of Parliament and he'll continue to perform very, very strongly with the responsibilities that he has in Angus Taylor’s team. So, don't want to get ahead of ourselves. We have got a long way to go. But I think Andrew Hastie's track record speaks volumes and we can have a high level of confidence that he'll be working hard to win his seat and working hard to make sure that Angus Taylor is the next Prime Minister.
PETERSON: But does the Opposition – is it ceding too much ground, Dean, to One Nation, does the Liberal Party have enough fight in them?
SMITH: Answer to that is yes, yes, yes, yes. We do have enough fight in us. Every by-election is an opportunity to remind ourselves about what are the issues important to electors. If we find new issues are important to electors and parliamentarians and political parties and those sorts of things come as a surprise to political parties or parliamentarians, that's because they're not paying enough attention to what is happening on the ground. So, we are in to win the next election. We're fighting very, very hard. Angus Taylor is a strong leader. We have released a plan, we're continuing to work towards that plan. Responding to issues. And I've got every confidence of the West Australian Liberal Party, not just in a seat like Canning, but in seats like Pearce and other seats across the state. We'll be working very, very hard to make sure that we can build the trust of the West Australian electorate so that we can perform well at the next poll.
PETERSON: Patrick, were you surprised by that One Nation result though in Secret Harbour? And is there now no such thing as a safe seat or a safe Labor seat?
GORMAN: Well, Olly, firstly, I've never subscribed to the idea that we have such things as safe seats. I think you always have to go and earn the trust of the people who you are asking to send you to, in my case, Canberra or Western Australia's case, the State Parliament. You have to earn that at every election. And I've never subscribed to the safe seat hypothesis and definitely this result shows that it is completely untrue and it also shows us that the power rests with the voters. What I'd also say though is that I do agree with Dean that there are people who are – and not just in the outer suburbs, there are people, you know, in my electorate who are doing it tough. Now, we can go through a whole range of the reasons that that is happening from international conflict, inflationary pressures, a whole range of things. And I think whenever you have a result like this, while again, it's not in my jurisdiction, you've got to go and look at it and see what people were saying on the ground. I spent a bit of time in Secret Harbour. I heard some things that I think make me a better Member of Parliament because I heard views that didn't necessarily align with my own. But I was able to do that in a respectful way, and I think that's what I'd like to see in any political discussion.
PETERSON: Patrick Gorman is with us this afternoon. He's the Labor MP for Perth, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister and Senator Dean Smith, the Shadow Assistant there to the Shadow Treasurer. 1300 22 1025. If you want to put a question today to our federal politicians on Drive 102.5 ABC Perth and across WA, you're with Oliver Peterson at 10 to 4. Let's go to Fremantle. Hi, Damien.
DAMIEN, CALLER: Hi, guys. Question mainly for Dean, but also for Patrick as well, because it is an issue for both parties. It's pretty obvious, you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to realise that Basil's leaning pretty hard into One Nation here in Western Australia. And as a bit of a political, you know, dork or geek, I can see him forming a coalition heading into the next state election. Because there's one thing we know about Basil, he is a fiercely determined guy, and he wants to be premier and I think he sees that as his way of becoming premier. So, I'm just curious how Dean and the feds would battle that. And also, Patrick's take on the fact that, you know, this is a real possibility of a conservative coalition forming with One Nation.
PETERSON: Well, on that, before we go to Dean and to Patrick, obviously, Basil Zempilas was on the morning program today with Nadia Mitsopoulos where he said that ‘One Nation want a bad Labor government out and we, that is the Liberal Party, want a bad Labor government out. So, on that point, we're united, but we're not in partnership, we're not a team, we're not in an alliance and we're not looking to form any coalition.’ But it's probably fair to say he didn't rule it out either. Dean, you first.
SMITH: Well, there's nothing more for me to add if that's what Basil Zempilas has said on ABC Radio in Perth this morning, Oly, I think that's pretty simple. I agree with Damien on one point. Basil Zempilas is fiercely determined to be the next premier of Western Australia. And I think he'll be a tremendously successful premier of Western Australia. Part of that fierce determination is to win it in his own right. Is to win it in his own right. And you know, I'm sure Basil's critics will say this. Basil has built a strong and capable team around him. When Basil is out in the community, they see Basil Zempilas, but they also see his team. And I've got every confidence that Basil will maintain that fiercely determined character that he's demonstrated to West Australians already, right up until the next election, which is March 2029. And I've got every confidence and I'll be working to support Basil Zempilas to become the next premier of Western Australia in his own right.
PETERSON: Could you see though, Dean, One Nation coming to the party that you form an even bigger coalition?
SMITH: No, because if we win in our own right, coalitions are not necessary. But let's just be, let's just turn the temperature down a little bit, Oly, if we can. People do love to get slightly ahead of themselves. The election day and the pre poll is so far away that I just don't think it is helpful talking about these hypotheticals. I think what is really, really important is to be asking people what are their policy positions as issues arise between now and the next state election. As issues arise between now and the next federal election. So, I do think that, you know, not just politicians but commentators and members of the public do want to sort of fast forward to March 2029 when we're not even at 2028.
PETERSON: Patrick?
GORMAN: Firstly, I will say I think every West Australian would recognise that Basil Zempilas is ambitious for himself, I don't know if he is that ambitious for others, but it does seem like he's now got some ambition for One Nation, which is a really interesting thing to see. Damien said it well, he said you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to see that maybe the Liberal Party and One Nation are working closer together. Well, Damien, there's actually a Rhodes Scholar in the Parliament. His name is Angus Taylor. And I see Angus Taylor working closer and closer with One Nation every single month that he is leader. Even One Nation have accused him of stealing some of their policies. So, I do think that we're seeing a realignment on the conservative side of politics. The reality is - the proof of that point is - that Barnaby Joyce, who was a Deputy Prime Minister supported by the Liberal Party, has now jumped over to be the Treasury spokesperson for One Nation. So, we are seeing quite a bit of back and forward. You've seen it in South Australia as well where senior Liberals are now senior One Nation MPs. I don't think that’s good because I do think that the Liberal Party, if it held true to where it was a couple of decades ago of rejecting some of the more divisive parts of the One Nation agenda, I think that would have been a better thing for the country. But they have chosen for their own survival to embrace it.
PETERSON: One of the founders was David Oldfield. He was a Liberal who decided to go across to One Nation many, many years ago. Let's go to Geraldton though, cause Sam has phoned through. Good afternoon, Sam, what's your question or your observation there to Patrick and to Dean?
SAM, CALLER: So, just a bit of a general observation from what people have been saying out here in the regions there seems people will often make comments about how all sides of politics seem to be attacking One Nation as they're far right, they're pretty extreme in some of their views. But then what people are actually saying on the ground is like what they're actually saying, what One Nation is saying seems to be more common sense. Now that we've had a result in the by-election down in Secret Harbour and we actually have a One Nation candidate there. And same with the Farrer election federally. I think our federal political parties should actually afford One Nation a bit more respect because people are actually turning up to vote for them. And so, this constant criticising of them, saying they're extreme, they're really dangerous and all this sort of stuff is basically dismissing most of the electorate that seems to be actually turning to One Nation. Just wondering if you could give comment on that.
PETERSON: Thanks, Sam. Has the game changed, Patrick? Have you got to be careful what you say? Maybe that you might have said a month ago that you now wouldn't say about One Nation?
GORMAN: I think you have always got to speak your values and be true to the things that you have said to your community when they have sent you to Parliament. And so, for me that means standing up for the sort of Australia that I want to build, which is one that is welcoming, kind and does not leave people behind. Now, I think the thing I would say to Sam, though; you know, Dean and I are sitting here in a studio in Canberra. Dean and I have pretty strong differences on a range of things, but we can do that in a really civil way. Similarly, Sam, you mentioned the Farrer by-election. We have got David Farley. He sits just around from me in the House of Representatives. I have had really good constructive conversations with him in a respectful way. I don't want to see his party being a party of government, but it doesn't mean that I can't respect the community that sent him to Parliament. And where there are places that you can get something done, that is what we try and do. Ultimately, you know, when it comes to differences of opinion, though, it is part of the job. I have got to stand up for what I believe in. Dean has got to stand up for what he believes in. Senator Hanson does that. We all put our arguments to the Australian people and then at elections, you and 27 million Australians, well, sorry, probably only 18 million are enrolled. Sorry for the younger Australians who are listening, but they make a decision and that is how we decide our differences
PETERSON: Are the tactics changing, Dean?
SMITH: I think Sam makes a really important point, and I hear it from Sam just a moment ago, but of course I hear it as I travel around Western Australia. People do want to see more respect, more courtesy in the political discourse. That doesn't mean that people can't be robust in their arguments and sort of, you know, fulsome in their debate, but they do want to see more respect between members of Parliament, more respect being shown to, you know, different political parties. So, Sam's comments reflect what I hear across the state. What we'll get an opportunity to see in the West Australian State Parliament - people will be watching it more closely in South Australia, the people of Farrer are watching it closely, as you know - how well does a One Nation member of Parliament perform? How effective are they in raising policy issues, in bringing change to their local communities? Where do they line up on the issues that are important to our state. So, people will get to see a little bit more depth around how effective One Nation is in the Parliament, which is a really, really important part of the exercise. Which is exactly what many people have already been doing when they assess the performance of myself as a Senator representing Western Australia or Patrick as a Member of the House of Representatives representing the electors of Perth. So, what we'll start to see is a little bit more opportunity for people's assumptions to be interrogated a bit. Are they false assumptions about how political parties and candidates will actually turn out and operate as members of Parliament? But I do agree and I hear it a lot from people, they do want more respect and I'm someone when I'm engaging, whether it's about Labor Party policies or One Nation policies or policies of the Australian Greens, I work really, really hard to try keep it focused on the substance of the issue and to play the, you know, to play the policy and not the person.
PETERSON: Patrick and Dean, we really appreciate your time this Wednesday, but we'll have to leave it there. That's been behind party lines with Senator Dean Smith and Assistant Minister Patrick Gorman.