TOM CONNELL, HOST: Let's get to our Monday panel. Joining me, Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman, and former Liberal MP for Mackellar, Jason Falinski. Why don't we start with those recounts? Jason, I know you're keeping a close eye. We've got one that is happening in Bradfield for a full recount and a partial in Goldstein. Two Liberal versus so-called 'Teal' contests. It seems that the AEC is partly doing it in Goldstein for, you know, ensuring there's community confidence. Some of that vote was bouncing around in the third count of that, for example. You comfortable with everything that's happening here?
JASON FALINSKI, FORMER LIBERAL MP FOR MACKELLAR: No I'm not, Tom. I think this is just absolutely absurd. The AEC are breaking their own rules and for reasons that they will have to disclose I think at some point, the 'bouncing around' to which you refer never actually saw Tim Wilson's margin go out, not down. I understand, it's been reported today that, Zoe Daniel has been assisted in this by Labor Party pollsters and other people, and even their own arguments fall short of this recount, partial or otherwise. I don't know why the AEC is doing this, and the truth is none of us do.
CONNELL: Well, they have released their reasons for it. I will say that those votes were bringing the margin out and then brought it back in. So it did bounce around. It was going out and back in and by a significant amount, so that's incorrect. There's not a rule, by the way, it's a convention for under 100 you can still do it if its more than that -
FALINSKI: So Tom that's been happening in every electorate around Australia -
CONNELL: - Well, you just said it didn't come in -
FALINSKI: - Does every electorate get a recount?
CONNELL: Hang on. Jason. You said they weren't coming in at all.
FALINSKI: Yes, Tom.
CONNELL: There were corrections to the tally that brought the vote in. I'm bringing the facts here. You can have a crack at the AEC, you're entitled to -
FALINSKI: When the reallocation started Tim Wilson was ahead by 160 votes. How much is he ahead by now, at the end of that reallocation, Tom?
CONNELL: I'm not doing your barristerial questions, it got out to 444, it came back to 260. My point is it bounced around -
FALINSKI: - Well, so it went out by 100 votes -
CONNELL: It went up but it also came back, so there were corrections both ways.
FALINSKI: Alright. Okay.
CONNELL: Do you want a question back? Were there corrections -
FALINSKI: So, it went out, it came back, and it's further out.
CONNELL: Were there corrections that also brought the vote closer Jason?
FALINSKI: What was the net impact of those corrections Tom?
CONNELL: All right, we could do this all day. Obviously, the overall margin went up -
FALINSKI: Well indeed -
CONNELL: - but there were also corrections and tallies found that brought it closer, which you implied in your initial statement there weren't.
FALINSKI: [Silence].
CONNELL: Alright.
FALINSKI: Well you don't want to do this all day.
CONNELL: Well, no, I'm just saying, your first thing you said - the vote didn't come down at all - it did in some of the booths. Patrick slice through here, are there Labor people helping out Zoe Daniel, and is that appropriate?
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: I'm not aware of that, simple as that, Tom. That's a straight answer to your question. We had a Labor candidate in that electorate. That person was not successful. This is now a contest that the Electoral Commission has to count all of the votes. I mean, what I think is very interesting is we've got Jason Falinski here, who's the President, the Secretary, the Treasurer, and the immediate past President of the Tim Wilson Fan Club, having an absolute hissy fit about the Electoral Commission just doing their job. We should let the Electoral Commission do their job. And I'd note that Jason Falinski's idol -
FALINSKI: That's not true. That's outrageous. That is outrageous. I can't allow you to get away with that -
GORMAN: - Jason Falinski's idol, Tim Wilson himself says he's relaxed.
FALINSKI: Well, maybe that's not outrageous.
GORMAN: And if Tim Wilson is relaxed, I think Jason should take the same chill pill.
FALINSKI: Okay, look, you guys can say whatever you like, but the fact is that the margin has gone out. The AEC now has some sort of 'oh, it's bouncing around.' His name is Simon Banks. He works for Pyxis, which is the Labor Party's pollster. And this has been reported in the media, so I don't feel like I'm divulging insider information. So clearly, there are people employed by the Labor Party who are helping Zoe Daniel.
CONNELL: All right, well, be that as it may, as I said, the point around the recount, the final check, where it was bouncing around, it was going up and down, Jason, was looking at distributed preferences. So, not those who voted Wilson or Daniel '1' -
FALINSKI: Okay, Tom, let me ask you one last question. In the end -
CONNELL: Yeah, go on.
FALINSKI: Did it go up or did it go down?
CONNELL: [Sigh].
FALINSKI: Let me ask you this one. In the end, did it go up or did it go down?
CONNELL: I have already answered that, Jason. You didn't answer whether or not -
FALINSKI: - the answer is: it went up!
CONNELL: - there were also batches, piles found incorrectly that brought the vote, the margin down after it had gone up. So I played your game. I said, 'yes, the net amount was lower.' You didn't say it went back down from 444. You can't say that.
FALINSKI: Sure, sure. It went out to 440 -
CONNELL: Oh, there you are.
FALINSKI: - came back to 260 -
CONNELL: Okay.
FALINSKI: - it started at 160.
CONNELL: Great. It bounced around. No worries.
FALINSKI: I mean, yes, the nature of the count is that sometimes you go up, sometimes you go down.
CONNELL: Alright, let's talk about electricity prices.
FALINSKI: Speaking of things that only go up.
CONNELL: Pat, electricity prices. Jason and I will sort of sort out everything else off air, and we'll see - one of us will be back next week, probably not me at this rate. Patrick, electricity prices. What about - talk about bouncing around? These just go up, don't they? There's no pledge from Labor this election. Just lost all your confidence on saying you bring them down?
GORMAN: We took policies to this election which will help households and businesses with energy prices. We will continue the roll out of renewable energy, which we know over time, is the cheapest form of energy. We took an additional $150 energy bill rebate to this election, opposed by the Liberal Party, opposed by the National Party -
CONNELL: But they're not real price cuts -
GORMAN: And we took a policy to this election -
CONNELL: - That's, that's using taxpayer money to take off prices from taxpayer bills.
GORMAN: Well, we took a policy which has been successful at both our fight against inflation, our fight to support household budgets, we've done that on a number of occasions, and we took a policy to do that to this election, which we'll start to implement. Similarly, one of the other things we'll be implementing is our commitment around making it more affordable for households to get household batteries. That's something that we know will help with the security of our energy grids, help individual households with their energy costs, and help small businesses as well. All part of that broad range of programs to make sure that we have energy grids and the energy generation we need for the future. And I would just say to all of your viewers, Tom, shop around. What we know is, for those who are on the national energy market, you can shop around for a better deal. The default offer is there as sort of a safety net, but you can shop around for a better deal. You can't do that in the West, we've only got one provider, but in the East Coast, you can shop around.
CONNELL: Okay, Jason, where do you - just on nuclear? So, the solution to what's happening between the two Coalition partners around this moratorium on the nuclear - lifting that I should say. What about from there? I mean, do you feel as though the party needs to take a major policy of differentiation to the election, because it's going to take something, isn't it? Or are you just going to sort of avoid the fight on electricity and energy?
FALINSKI: So Tom, are you - is your suggestion that we should have a better policy than just 'shop around?' Yeah, I think we should. You're quite right. We should have a differential policy to that. Yep, yeah.
CONNELL: Okay. Gee. Are you going to -
FALINSKI: Look, I mean the fact of the matter is Labor Party's policy on electricity has failed.
GORMAN: Jason, are you going to shop around for nuclear power plants?
FALINSKI: It's been failing for quite some time, and well, actually, as it turns out, as it turns out, we were going to shop around as it turns out. But anyway, look, the fact is that under Labor and you can - Pat can keep talking about nuclear until the cows come home or the sun goes down. But the fact of the matter is that electricity keeps going up no matter how many subsidies they throw at it, Australians are paying more for their electricity than they ever had in a country that is endowed with more energy sources than virtually any other country on the face of the planet. It is a massive public policy failure, so yes, the Liberal Party should focus on structural reform -
CONNELL: - so do you think the Coalition, though, has to, Jason -
FALINSKI: - in the energy market to improve cost of electricity -
CONNELL: But doesn't it - so does that mean, though, on the on the other side of thing, because the Coalition was sort of shaping up to oppose part of the renewable rollout without saying exactly what it would do. Does it need to be a bit more concrete in what it's doing around that, for example?
FALINSKI: Well, I think. Well, Tom, my personal view is, I don't think we should oppose the renewable energy roll out at all. I mean, if that gets us to -
CONNELL: No, but there were elements of it, they were saying 'oh, this is a bad idea here,' or 'lack of community consultation here,' without sort of being concrete about what they would do -
FALINSKI: - Are you talking about offshore wind?
CONNELL: There was some offshore wind, there were other projects as well that were onshore, I think.
FALINSKI: Like...? Anyway, look, I think with offshore wind, yes, there are some communities that are opposed to offshore wind. We need to be cognisant of what they say. But ultimately, any renewable energy or major renewable energy project manager or investor will tell you, offshore wind is very expensive, and probably not the way to go forward in terms of reducing costs for electricity. So I don't know really what to say there. If you leave these things up to the market, you're probably going to end up with a different mix than we have at the moment, because we've, we've obviously heavily favoured renewable energy, but that doesn't but, you know, emissions continue to go up under this government, and that's an important factor as well.
CONNELL: Yeah, so projects-wise, when the Coalition was going to have a cap at one stage on renewable energy investment, and I guess the point was, where do you cap it? Patrick, on this, though, does Labor just go 'well, we won the election, everyone must love these rollouts,' or...?
FALINSKI: That's not true, Tom.
GORMAN: We will continue rolling out -
CONNELL: Well, effectively, there's going to be less renewable energy compared to Labor's plan. Anyway -
GORMAN: We will continue doing what we have been doing, Tom -
FALINSKI: Yeah, but that wasn't a cap, that was because -
GORMAN: - which is to make -
FALINSKI: Well - okay - alright -
GORMAN: Jason, you've had quite a bit of content. I don't know if you've got any policy insights you've given us, but you've had quite a fair go.
FALINSKI: I have, too true. Over to you, over to you Pat.
GORMAN: Thank you. Tom, we will continue doing what we were doing, which is making sure that we have the energy that Australians need now and a plan for the future. That means making sure that we support the roll out of more renewable energy, which is -
CONNELL: Alright.
GORMAN: - low cost, zero carbon, and it's the sort of energy that both Australians and businesses want, and so that's what we'll continue to do. We've got support there for the transmission infrastructure, got our support there for people who want to be able to store their own energy through household and small business batteries. We've got the work that we've done over a number of years, consulting with communities, including for the offshore wind proposals in Bunbury or offshore from Bunbury here in the West. We'll continue to do that. And what I think is a good thing for the country is that we aren't stopping everything that was happening for the choice of then going down the path of nuclear power sometime in the 2050s. I think that's a good thing -
CONNELL: Okay.
GORMAN: And I think most Australians agree that it's a good thing that we've not gone down that path.
CONNELL: I have found that quote that came to mind, Jason. It's David Littleproud saying 'we don't need large scale industrial wind farms, whether they be offshore or onshore.' And he said, 'we'll see in our energy mix.' And we never, sort of saw the concrete 'here's what's in, what's out.' But anyway, talk later next week or later today, Jason -
FALINSKI: Is David expressing a personal opinion?
CONNELL: Oh, just the Leader of the Nats. You know. Alright, Jason, Patrick, we'll patch things up. We'll talk next week. We'll see what we can do. Thank you.