OM CONNELL, HOST: Joining me now to talk about this and a few issues today, Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister Patrick Gorman, just on the principle here, if there is some sort of delay or cancellation and it's not weather related, any other reason, should that be something that people get some form of compensation for?
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: What we really want Tom is for when people pay for an airline ticket, often to get to really important occasions - it might be grandparents going to see a new grandchild, or people getting to a wedding, or just going and enjoying this beautiful country of ours. When people pay for a ticket, we want them to get the service they pay for. And, recognising that things do go wrong and we want a safe, reliable aviation sector, we want to make sure that customers are looked after when airlines have to change their schedules. Now that means providing food, accommodation if it's an overnight stay, and also having a minimum standard across the industry, so that customers know what they're going to get. And we have probably all seen moments at airports where things don't go quite to plan. It will hopefully take a bit of the tension out of the airports as well, where those frontline workers are having to deal with people who are having their plans destroyed at the last minute. So I think we're trying to get some basic consumer protections in there, some minimum standards and -
CONNELL: Should the principle on that - so would airlines be able to say, if it's weather related and they couldn't take off, that's out of their hands, but if it's mechanical, as in, you know, they don't have enough crew, that's on them? Is that where the divide would be? I understand, you know, we will see the particulars on compensation, but would they be the two different camps on whose, whose responsibility it is?
GORMAN: I think there are some instances Tom where, regardless of what the reason is, airlines have a responsibility. Now we are out consulting on that at the moment. The consultations close in a month's time. But if you have got people stranded at Perth Airport, just on the edge of my electorate, late at night because a flight has been cancelled, then that airline has some obligations to those passengers. And we want to make sure that it's consistent, that it's fair, and that it takes a lot of the guesswork out of what's happening in the moment.
CONNELL: Okay. So mechanical failure, though, that's on an airline? Would that make sense?
GORMAN: We will never compromise on airline safety, if that is what you're getting at. We will never compromise on that.
CONNELL: No, I'm not. I'm just saying, whose, whose fault is it, if they, you know, they thought a plane was going to work, but it didn't? I'm not trying to say, 'get out there anyway.' I'm just saying when would that compensation kick in?
GORMAN: All of the things that you outlined, Tom, are things that regularly happen in the aviation industry. You do have, obviously, very good safety regulations. You do have mechanical needs for aircraft, sometimes crew challenges and sometimes extreme weather events. But all of those things happen in the aviation industry on a regular basis, and that's why having something that is consumer right, that guarantees consumers get what they pay for and get paid back quickly. If a flight is cancelled, they should get rebooked or refunded really quickly. That is what I want to see happen.
CONNELL: We will see if that happens. I'm sure you'd be popular if you can make it so. Jason Falinski is here. I didn't introduce him. I wasn't sure what had happened, Jason, you weren't late from a flight were you?
JASON FALINSKI, FORMER LIBERAL MEMBER FOR MACKELLAR: As it turns out, no, Tom, I wasn't. I wish that was my excuse.
CONNELL: That's all right. We'll dock your pay. So, from zero down to whatever that will be. Where do you sit on this? Not a lot of places around the world do this. Is this something sort of that should have happened a while ago? If it's an airline's fault and you're really late, or you have to stay overnight, or, you know, you missed what you flew to do because it's six hours late, should there be compensation there?
FALINSKI: Well, look, Tom, we already have one of the most over-regulated aviation industries anywhere in the world. That's mostly due to the way that CASA administers our airspace. What Patrick is advocating here is, I think, worthy and something that all consumers would be in favour of if you've been inconvenienced through no fault of your own, you would expect the airline to make sure that they make good. But there's a lot the government can do before it adds even more costs to one of the most expensive air systems in the world by getting CASA to actually behave in a manner and form that's reasonable and sensible, rather than constantly adding costs to what we have to pay to travel around the large one of the largest and most sparsely-populated countries in the world.
CONNELL: Alright. I do want to get your thoughts on what's happening in the Liberal Party on migration. Untangle this for us - what's happened? Do we need to hear the big 'sorry' word from the Senator?
FALINSKI: Yeah, look, I think that she does need to actually say sorry. I think that what she said was really unhelpful in terms of what the Liberal Party is trying to achieve in reaching out to people. And also an important message, which is that immigration, while the immigration at the levels that they are at the moment are a massive problem in Australia, it's not the cause of the problem that we are facing in Australia. The reason that high levels of immigration are causing such a massive problem is because of the supply side constraints that we've put on in the economy, and they're the things that we need to fix. But to blame migrants for what are policy faults emanating out of our federal and state parliaments, and frankly, being administered by a lot of NIMBY local councils is really unfair and unfortunate. And so I think Jacinta needs to sort of, you know, walk back what she said or explain it in a manner and form that makes sense to a lot more people.
CONNELL: What did you make, Patrick, of a comment from the PM, 'there were good people at those rallies' - some thought there was a bit of Trumpism to that?
GORMAN: I recognise that there were 10,000 people who attended the rally in my electorate of Perth, just down the road from where I am sitting right now. Now I recognise that there are some there who hold extreme, abhorrent views that would disgust most Australians, but I also recognise there were people at those rallies who were just seeking to have their voice heard and put their view forward. Now that doesn't mean that I agree with everything they said, but I recognise that we're all Australians, Tom. Most of us come to these issues wanting to do the best for the country that we love. Now I am not going to criticise every single person who attended those rallies. I do agree with the Prime Minister on that, and I agree with him when he says there were good people who attended those rallies, but we also made it clear there were people with extremist views that are absolutely disgusting, and there's no place for that.
CONNELL: Jason, I want to get you, finally, on what's happening with tobacco in this country. It seems incredible the point we're at now. Firebombing of tobacco stores, sometimes wrongly-targeted households, deaths from that as well. Is the only way to address this to actually make legal cigarettes cheaper?
FALINSKI: Well, it always amazes me, Tom, that the same people who would argue that marijuana should be made legal are the same people who essentially want to make tobacco illegal. Their ideological and philosophical indifference and hypocrisy is never and rarely pointed out to them. But what we have done, once again, we have one of the most complex, unfair tax systems in the world because we keep trying to run social policy through our tax system. So the result is now that we have created a massive black market for cigarettes that is fuelling criminal behaviour in most of our major cities and has created adverse health outcomes. It has achieved the opposite of what it was meant to achieve. We need to stop using our tax system for social policy, and we need to get back to dealing with this as a health issue and stop people, you know, who just want to cancel everything from running our lives and let people make the decisions that they need to make, and ensure that those decisions are well informed when, when they make them.
CONNELL: Does there need to be some change in the status quo, Patrick? This is a disastrous policy right now, isn't it, in terms of what the effects are?
GORMAN: Let's be clear about what we're talking about. We are talking about illegal tobacco, illegally imported into the country, illegally sold and illegally avoiding taxation.
CONNELL: But yeah, because it is so lucrative -
GORMAN: What we're doing in the Albanese Government - [inaudible]
CONNELL: You can't - can you, this is just adding another - [inaudible]
GORMAN: To talk about exactly that, how do you stop this illegal trade? What we are doing is investing it this year, $157 million to support our law enforcement agencies, Border Force and the rest, to act on this at the border and to do the important, detailed work they do in Australia.
CONNELL: - And that will fix it?
GORMAN: And that's on top of $188 million dollars a year -
CONNELL: Will we be able to say in a year it's all sorted? No more firebomings are happening?
FALINSKI: Tom. Nothing summarises left wing politics better than this, because what you have managed to achieve is you have created a massive black market where one didn't exist. You have seen tax revenue fall through the floor. You have seen use of tobacco go up and nicotine go up, and now you are paying extra money, using more taxpayer money to try and solve a problem that didn't exist because of tax policy.
CONNELL: Let me ask this, Patrick, is the level of tax, given the effect it's happening, being looked at at all, or is the government not for turning on that?
GORMAN: The tax settings for tobacco have been long standing across governments of Labor and Liberal-National for many, many years. What we want to see -
CONNELL: It kept going up and up and prevention got to a level that's created this black market.
GORMAN: Prevention on illegal activity, and also the other work that's been done, including by Minister Mark Butler, to make sure we crack down on vapes to stop the next generation of vapers and smokers. That is also about what it's about, it's about health policy and doing what's right for the people.
CONNELL: Alright, going to leave it there. Jason, Patrick, thank you. Talk again soon.