GARY ADSHEAD, HOST: And it is WA Day. I find the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman, the Member for Perth, in the studio with me. Happy WA Day.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Happy WA Day to you, Gary, and to all of your listeners.
ADSHEAD: Is it a big day for you? Like, is there a lot of events around that we probably don't even know about?
GORMAN: There are not a lot of big events on WA Day. Or if there are, I haven't got an invitation, but gives me the opportunity to come and say hello here. We used to have the big concert on WA Day. But I think the foresight has been there to not have it at this time of year.
ADSHEAD: It's amazing, isn't it? Amazing, though, that that became the sort of the you could set your clock to the weather on that WA Day because of the last two years or more cancellations now, maybe two or three?
GORMAN: Yeah.
ADSHEAD: But never mind. We move on. I've just got to get your reaction - Dorinda Cox has joined Labor. How should we be seeing that? A lot of people on the text line are seeing that as an out and out defection from The Greens.
GORMAN: Well, Senator Cox herself has said that her values best align with the Labor Party, and that she's thought very carefully about this over a period of time and has chosen to come and join the Labor team. Let me welcome her to the Labor team. I've worked really closely with Dorinda Cox over a number of years on things that we both are really passionate about, particularly First Nations justice. And I was with her at the Indigenous Veterans War Memorial service just on Wednesday. I look forward to working with her in the Labor caucus to get things done.
ADSHEAD: Do you explain, I mean though you heard me, I made the glib remark about the hypocrisy of it sometimes, you know, you sit back and look at it, because I don't, I don't wear a badge of any team. I'm just me, and I go, 'how can you be so stridently against North West Shelf and what's just been approved there provisionally, and then go and sit with the party that's done it?' Just explain it to me. Explain it to listeners. How does this work in politics?
GORMAN: Well, I think what your listeners would know is that most people who go into Parliament want to get things done, and you recognise that you can't get everything done by yourself. And that's what Senator Cox has said in the press conference she did with the Prime Minister just over an hour ago. That she wants to be part of delivering practical progress.
ADSHEAD: Well, she'd want to stop more pollution in relation to the Murujuga Rock Art, wouldn't she? But is she going to be able to do that within the Labor Party?
GORMAN: Well, Minister Watt's provisional decision that he announced last week is out there very clearly for everyone to see that there will be additional conditions for the atmosphere to make sure that we do what we can under the EPBC Act to protect that rock art. The specific details of that have gone back to the proponent of the project, and you know, Senator Cox and others are well aware that that was the decision we have made in accordance with the law. That's it. When it comes to these big decisions, ministers are the individual decision makers, and they have to act in accordance with the laws the Parliament's passed. That's what Minister Watt's done on this occasion. And again, I'm just really excited about what we can get done, welcoming Senator Dorinda Cox, as a proud West Australian senator, into the Labor caucus to help us get things done here in this state.
ADSHEAD: Alright, it's quarter to five. I'm talking to the Member for Perth, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister as well, Patrick Gorman. Just want to get your take on this, given that you mentioned Murray Watt. It's Paul Brown, who ran for the Nationals in the Senate, of course, on the back of the whole Keep The Sheep campaign that they ran. This is a little bit of him suggesting that there's still a chance of a victory here:
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PAUL BROWN, FORMER NATIONAL PARTY CANDIDATE FOR THE SENATE: So I think that the industry needs to have a reset in how it wants to try to negotiate with the with the federal government, now that they have a they've got a much larger margin.
JOURNALIST: But what's left to negotiate, though?
BROWN: Well, maybe there's a softer landing. Maybe it's not 2028 maybe because of the the outcomes that we've, the detrimental outcome that we've been able to put a voice to, and now that we're seeing, we said at the start that there would be a detrimental outcome, it would have a devastating effect on regional WA and I think we're actually seeing that now. So maybe, if anything, the federal government can now say, 'well, we didn't anticipate that it was going to be so damaging so quickly.' So, maybe it's not a 2028 landing spot. Maybe it's a 2034 and give us, give the industry a much softer landing. Now that's, I'm not saying that's what the industry is talking about. I'm just, you know, putting forward a devil's advocate position that maybe that's something where we need to have a chat.
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ADSHEAD: Okay, playing devil's advocate on the country out there. That's Paul Brown, who ran for the Nats on the back of the whole Keep The sheep campaign. Is there any chance that that deadline will be moved?
GORMAN: Well, the deadline has been set by the parliament. It's been voted on in both the House and the Senate. And what I'd say to Paul Brown, and what I would say to sheep producers across this great state, is talk to the Transition Advocate. We recognise that this is a change, but we want to do it in a way where we work with industry. That's why we've outlined that $139 million package. Now, that's got about $97 million that is all about trying to make sure that we have the supply chains here to process that sheep meat, and there's another $27 million to help grow markets, because we actually recognise there's huge demand for Australian product in the world. We can sell that as chilled and frozen meat, and we can make sure that those producers have that strong future that we've been talking about all the way through this discussion. So I'd encourage Mr. Brown and others to engage with the Transition Advocate. We've got someone there. They're a Western Australian. They're right here, doing that work to make sure that we can do this transition in a way that doesn't rely on what is also a very precarious supply chain, relying upon live export. And Parliament's made the decision, so let's make it a successful decision.
ADSHEAD: Can I just ask as well, probably sort of more on the international front, but it'll affect us, and that is Donald Trump deciding that there will now be a 50 per cent tariff, I mean, it's a moving feast, but a 50 per cent tariff on steel products going into the US. How is that going to impact given how much of our iron ore, et cetera, comes out of here?
GORMAN: Well, these are not tariffs that we see as being in the interests of the people of the United States, nor in the interests of Australians. And what we know is that Australia has been a good, reliable supplier of a range of products, including aluminium and steel. And we want to be a good, reliable trading partner for many years to come. So what we'll continue to do is advocate for free and fair trade, recognising that making sure that the United States can get access to these great Australian products is in their interest. And when it comes to tariffs - tariffs, as the Prime Minister and others have said, is an act of self harm. It's increasing the costs for American companies and American consumers. There is no benefit. And the best evidence I have as to why I don't think this is good policy is we here in Australia do not impose these tariffs on the goods that we import, because we recognise it wouldn't be good for our economy.
ADSHEAD: It's volatile, isn't it, in terms of the sort of the sort of, the sort of decisions that come out of the White House? And I know that the Prime Minister will be meeting at the G7 with with President Trump himself. Is he going there with a strong message about, you know, 'hey, remember us, we're your friends, we're your allies?'
GORMAN: Australia and America are great friends. That's the truth of it. And you only need to look at some of the great US companies that are based here, or the great Australian companies that are doing very well in the United States to know that there is deep economic and people-to-people links. But what we will continue to do is just to point out the economic case for free and fair trade, because that's in the interests of both Australian and United States consumers. We'll keep putting that case, but it's not something we're just starting now, Gary. It's something we've been doing for a long period of time. We're really clear. We sent Foreign Minister Wong over to the inauguration for the President. We've had the Ambassador in the United States in Washington DC doing that work, we've had Minister Farrell having meetings as well. We'll continue to do that advocacy. And of course, the Prime Minister has had a number of conversations with the US President, putting Australia's position.
ADSHEAD: And the defence ministers met, the US Defence Secretary, of course, Hegseth in Singapore tells us that we need to spend more on defence. Do we have to listen to them before we get to that meeting with Donald Trump, that they want us to go to 3.5% of GDP, for example? Another, probably another 40 billion, I think, is what we're looking at.
GORMAN: Well, I think your listeners would know and expect that we craft the Australian Government Budget in the Australian national interest. That's what we do every budget cycle. And what we've done when it comes to what we need to do in defence is we have increased spending to purchase additional capability. There's in the forward estimates of the budget, another $10 billion of spending on top of where it would have been when we first came to office, and that is to make sure we have the capabilities we need for the defence of this nation. Now, I'm not going to do what the Liberal Party did just a month ago at the election, where they came out and said, 'here's a dollar figure,' but they couldn't tell us what they were going to spend it on. That's not how you run a responsible budget process. I take the defence of this nation very seriously, and I want to make sure that we have the capability and the support that those who serve in our armed forces rightly deserve and the Australian people rightly expect, and so we'll just continue on the path that we are already on.
ADSHEAD: Just on that, then. I mean, I think there's people in the Liberal Party that agree with you - that agree with you that that's probably not how you run a defence policy. And it was interesting to see Andrew Hastie talk quite stridently about disappointment in relation to the policy and the way that it came forward in the election.
GORMAN: Yeah, Andrew Hastie and I don't agree on much, but we do agree that the Liberals got it wrong in how they put their defence policy together.
ADSHEAD: Okay, now this is an interesting one. Tasmanian Senator Jacqui Lambie, she says that royalties earned from WA mining sector should be distributed more evenly around the nation. Senator Lambie has made these comments after Budget forecasts show Tasmania's state debt will hit more than $10 billion before the end of the decade. She's told ABC Radio Hobart that there needs to be a rethink of the GST carve-up. Patrick Gorman, here we go! What do you think?
GORMAN: Well, I respect that it is the role of senators to advocate for their states' interests, and I've got a lot of respect for Senator Lambie. But we'll keep doing what we're doing when it comes to supporting the Tasmanian state government's Budget. You actually saw the Prime Minister was there on the weekend opening a brand new, beautiful, big bridge there in Tassie. We've got announcements we made during the election campaign around continued support for the Freight Equalisation Scheme to make it more affordable for producers in Tasmania to get their goods out into the rest of the mainland. And so we'll keep doing the things that we can. The GST arrangements - obviously we've got the No Worse Off Guarantee, so that already provides a range of supports. And I'm also a real optimist about the future of the Tasmanian economy. Tasmania -
ADSHEAD: Jacqui's not!
GORMAN: - Tasmania has so much going for it. It's got excellent tourism products. It's got some great manufacturing businesses. We've obviously done some work to support some of the agricultural industries in Tasmania. We'll keep doing that work. But I also recognise that every state, whenever they're putting a budget together, they'd always like the Commonwealth to be tipping in a little bit more, and that's probably even true here in a comparatively wealthy Western Australia.
ADSHEAD: Yeah. I mean, is it sustainable, though? That when premiers get around a table and they look over to WA and they see all the mining royalties, and they see the $3.2 billion surplus, for example, that it's not going to continue to be an issue?
GORMAN: Well, I also note that for the Commonwealth, we're very happy that many of those companies that are digging out those natural resources and selling them at a very good price do pay a lot of Commonwealth taxes as well. They, of course, pay a range of company taxes, and of course, their workers pay some pretty significant income tax as well, and that helps the Commonwealth bottom line. So I say thank you for making sure that we can continue to put together budgets that do the things we want to do, like strengthening Medicare and delivering on things like Free TAFE. So we'll keep we'll keep hearing the different cases to be put. But also I've been through it here in Western Australia. You'd have listeners who've been through the peaks and the troughs of some of those commodity cycles. It's not always good times. It's not always record-breaking prices, things can change very quickly. We were talking earlier about global volatility, and what we know is that there can be times where actually there are some pretty difficult decisions made in this state if commodity prices take a turn for the worst. So I think we've got to have that sort of good, balanced approach, which is what our government has, when it comes to the No Worse Off Guarantee, but also trying to make sure that we support industries in every state and territory.
ADSHEAD: Can I ask you - clearly the North West Shelf gas decision that was provisionally made, as you said, by Murray Watt last week. That is something that the state government here wanted - no doubt about that - and they wanted it as fast as possible. Is the Prime Minister here now to reassure them around Nature Positive and particularly this, the controls and powers that a federal EPA may have over mining and resources projects here?
GORMAN: We were really clear - and Minister Watt has visited Western Australia to have these conversations - that we are going to consult with everyone. We don't want to be in a position where we're ruling things out before we've done the consultations. We'll listen to everyone's position. We know that the state government have a really strong view. There are other state governments as well that have really strong views about what happens with reform of the EPBC Act. Because what we know is we're currently making decisions under laws that were passed when John Howard and Kim Beazley were both in Parliament. Things have moved on a bit in terms of what we need from our environmental protection laws, and we need to do that consultation work. I'm not going to pre-empt the nature of that consultation work, because I want it to be where everyone comes, believing that they can put their views forward, be heard by government, and that we can get the balance right.
ADSHEAD: 'Balance' is a word that we hear a lot. One of the things that spun me out a bit about the North West Shelf gas project provisional approval is that it takes it out to 2070. What does that say for net zero by 2050? That we doesn't make sense.
GORMAN: What we recognise is that the path to net zero is a path that also relies upon energy security. We can't go to net zero tomorrow. It's going to take 25 years to get not just the Australian economy, but the global economy to that point of net zero. We recognise that part of the path of that is to make sure that households and businesses have energy security. I want to see the nature of that energy security transform over time. What we currently have, probably, keeping most of this studio running right now is probably the coal-fired power down in Collie, but I want to see that transition over time. Moving over to looking at more renewables. And that's exactly what we're doing. We think we can get for the national grid, which I note, isn't Western Australia, but for the national grid that consumes most of the energy and therefore generates most of the emissions, we can get that to 82% renewables by 2030. And we're on a similar trajectory here in the West as well, but with a smaller grid, you obviously have a few different challenges. But we'll keep doing that work, because I want to see Australia reach net zero. That will still rely on some use of traditional fuels, but far less. And it won't be our default choice anymore. The default choice will be electricity. The default choice will be stored energy. And that's going to be a good thing, not just for the planet, it's also going to be a good thing for customers and businesses, because it's a cheaper form of energy.
ADSHEAD: Right-o. I've got one for you, just to sort of finish it off.
GORMAN: Alright.
ADSHEAD: Would you be comfortable - I know it's a state issue - but would you be comfortable having bare knuckle boxing, or fighting, in the City of Perth, in your electorate, at the Arena?
GORMAN: Oh, look, I think, like a lot of your listeners, I feel a lot of discomfort about bare knuckle boxing. It's probably one of the reasons I'm really glad it's a state decision, not a Commonwealth decision. And I think one of the reasons that, you know these sort of unconventional sports that are, you know, quite aggressive. It's why you've got that Combat Sports Commission that has to kind of deal with all of these tricky problems.
ADSHEAD: But the minister can overrule the Combat Sports Commission. Would you be disappointed if Labor and WA don't?
GORMAN: Look the minister's outlined the powers that she has and how she intends to use them? So I respect that. It's a state decision. And like I said, I probably -
ADSHEAD: If you were having a glass of vino with Rita now, would you say 'crikey, do we really have to have bare knuckle fighting in WA?' I mean, why are we opening the door on another active sort of violent sport like that?
GORMAN: I can't speak for the Deputy Premier, but I have seen comments from a range of state government ministers who've pointed out that this doesn't have any state financial support. It's not something that they went to recruit or sought to bring here, they've received an application through their process, which is this Combat Sports Commission body that looks at these combat sports, and they're going through that now.
ADSHEAD: Alright, which makes it even weirder for me that they never went looking for it. It's just come to them and they're still going to say yes, but that's my comment. Patrick Gorman, thanks very much for coming in on WA Day.
GORMAN: Happy WA Day, Gary and happy WA Day to all your listeners.