TOM CONNELL, HOST: Well, we put out the call. We weren't sure where in the world he was. But Jason Falinski is back. Of course, he's joining Labor MP Patrick Gorman. Thank you both for your time. Jason starting with you. Good trip? Happy to be back? It was good? I don't know if you contacted us because you got that special call from Patrick Gorman, who looked down camera four in the end I figured out it was and said, please pick up the phone. You did, pretty effective.
JASON FALINSKI, FORMER LIBERAL MP: I did. Well, now he's in charge of the intelligence services. So you know, I had to quickly reveal where I was.
CONNELL: You were nervous.
FALINSKI: I was very nervous.
CONNELL: Okay, yeah. Well, let's start on that. So the reshuffle happened. And I think I was rude enough to say you've got sort of nothing, Patrick, but you've got another wing at it. I'm not sure how you sort of term it, Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL: And Assistant Minister for the Public Service
CONNELL: And the public service.
GORMAN: I'm really looking forward to working more closely with Mark Dreyfus. Obviously, we've got a really strong agenda, particularly when it comes to integrity measures, and making sure that we do things like what we did last year, establishing the National Anti-Corruption Commission. It was wonderful to be there at Yarralumla, with a range of Government Ministers being sworn into new portfolios, and a number of new additions to the Ministry in Josh Wilson, Kate Thwaites and Julian Hill. And of course, Patrick Conroy going into Cabinet.
CONNELL: Three Assistant Ministries though, that's just, surely they should be saying, 'Look, here's your full ministry.' That's teasing a bit, isn't it? Jason shaking his head, he agrees.
FALINSKI: Yeah.
GORMAN: Look, I really enjoy the work I do supporting the Prime Minister. And I think people knew that it would be very hard to get my hands off that portfolio. So I'm really pleased I get to continue that work. And to do a bit more, particularly on lifting integrity in government, working with Mark Dreyfus,
CONNELL: I want to give you a question without starting on Barnaby Joyce Jason. How was Washington? What's your hot take on how politics is going over there? Because it's been a heck of a few weeks.
FALINSKI: Yeah, it's been, it was really interesting. Tom, I've got to say it probably deserves a whole segment and I don't want to take over the entire panel with it. But the really interesting thing for me was how similar Australian politics is to US politics in terms of the issues. So the reporting back here on US politics is normally 'it's all about guns and abortion'. Actually, it's almost perfectly aligned with issues around inflation, border concerns and community safety. They're the big three issues that are driving US politics at the moment.
CONNELL: Yeah, well, look, it sounds interesting. Maybe we'll have a chat, see if I can find a window because we're on to the US politics, the fascinating contest, but on the domestic scene: Barnaby Joyce. I'm sure you've seen the comments he made. He's sort of saying it's not about violence when he's comparing bullets to the ballot box. But the Prime Minister has taken offense. What did you make, Jason, and including the call for Barnaby Joyce to be sacked, is this just not what we need in Australian politics or an overreaction?
FALINSKI: Look, I think the Prime Minister's call is for him to resign is just, you know, a distraction and a deflection and hyperbole at its worst. What Barnaby said was inappropriate, he's apologised for that. I can imagine he was reaching for a metaphor that connected with the audience that he was talking about. But look, Tom, just on, you know, comparing Australia to US politics. I don't think there's much difference. I think the politics of personal destruction, or as I noticed, in your previous interview, you said it's not here, it is here. We have to learn to stop playing the person and play the issue. It's appropriate Barnaby apologised. I think we all make mistakes, and the Prime Minister should accept his apology and we should move back on to the issues that matter to the Australian people.
CONNELL: My point, I guess is around how divided that country is, you know, you go to a state that's Republican and another one is Democrat. I just don't think we have that level of division, in particular amongst people in Australia. But anyway, we can thrash that out on the US Special Falinski and Connell, head-to-head. Patrick Gorman, sacking?
FALINSKI: Does that mean Pat will come on as the as the adjudicator for that?
CONNELL: Yeah, maybe well, I'll fly it up the flagpole. Pat, what do you make from what Jason said there? I mean, nobody is seriously suggesting, I don't think that Barnaby Joyce was saying, go out and you know, I'm not even going to sort of repeat the line lest I sound like an idiot. But he was saying it's the ballot box and it's the election. That's how you do it in Australia. That's true, isn't it?
GORMAN: This was some of the most extreme language we have seen from an Australian politician in recent memory. It was extreme language used by a senior member of Peter Dutton's frontbench, extreme language used by someone who sat for years on the National Security Committee. I'm not calling for Barnaby Joyce to resign. I'm calling for Peter Dutton to sack him. This is unacceptable.
CONNELL: Well for David Littleproud to -
GORMAN: Well, Peter Dutton is the leader of the Coalition. Petter Dutton says that he will be a Prime Minister who will make tough calls. Well, this is the first tough call that he needs to make if he thinks he should be anywhere near a leadership position. If he's just waiting for the Nationals to give him permission, it shows how weak he is, and shows that there is no low standard that he won't let walk by. I mean, Barnaby Joyce has had so many, has had hundreds and hundreds of second chances. It is time for someone to stop letting him say whatever he wants. These were carefully scripted remarks that Barnaby Joyce rolled out of this forum. Peter Dutton should sack -
CONNELL: He doesn't do anything carefully scripted, does he?
GORMAN: This looked like something that he thought was a pretty good idea that he had.
CONNELL: But what do you base that on? I mean, it looked like he was sort of going acapella to me.
GORMAN: You might think that those rappers that you say who go acapella are just doing it on the spot, Tom, but they rehearse for hours and hours.
CONNELL: I'm going to watch 8 Mile again, in a whole new lens now you have ruined that for me, Patrick.
GORMAN: And if Peter Dutton isn't going to sack Barnaby Joyce, he should at least stand up wherever he is in Australia and say why he is standing by this Shadow Minister.
CONNELL: You make me feel very old, I feel like we're sounding very old. If any of the kids are watching, sorry we don't have any more modern references on me than 8 Mile, an Eminem movie from about 20 years ago. Jason, on Barnaby Joyce, is he also saying the quiet part out loud? He called wind farms 'wind turds' and they're disgusting. I mean, isn't this the Nationals revealing they hate renewable energy. It's not just, you know, put it in the right spots and have other options, but they don't want any more renewables if they had their way there wouldn't be any more rolled out across the country.
FALINSKI: I don't think that's true Tom but I do think the Nationals generally feel -
CONNELL: He called them disgusting.
FALINSKI: Yeah, true. But I think what you just said is that he would be opposed to any new renewable energy. And I don't think that's true. I think what his point, or the National Party's point is more, that their communities are the ones that are paying the cost of the renewable energy agenda, as someone indeed does. And look, Tom, you know, I hesitate to make this point because I know what Pat's going to say in response, but like, you know, a lot of the Teals who keep pushing renewable energy, none of them are advocating wind farms off the coast of their electorates. They're always happy to put them somewhere. And I think there has to be a recognition that while everyone's in favour of renewables, that there are only particular parts of our community who are enduring or who are bearing the cost of that and you know, Barnaby's point, while often alliterative and sometimes evocative, is well made, and I think we need to get back to the policy issue here, which is, you know, who's bearing the burden of this policy choice?
CONNELL: I don't know that he wants wind anywhere does he, if they're wind turds, allegedly. Patrick on that, Labor is finding acceptance of renewables more difficult, clearly, than anticipated, because the large scale projects there's consultation on them, but there is a lot of community kickback. Now, you can call it NIMBY-ism. And perhaps they'll find more communities because you get payments for it and so on. But this is, it's difficult, isn't it? It's perhaps not as easy as you thought coming into office.
GORMAN: Look doing this in partnership with local communities is really important, but also making sure - Jason then just only talked about the costs. There's huge benefits for our regions in grabbing the opportunities of a renewable future. I went down to Collie last Friday, was speaking to people there, went and saw the big battery that's being installed. That's got some 877 megawatt hours of energy being stored in Collie. It used to be a coal fired town. It's got a huge opportunity as a renewable town. Same place that Peter Dutton says he wants to put a nuclear reactor, at the same time that even a month after he said he was going to plop a nuclear reactor there, he hasn't even visited. Kind of like he didn't show up today to explain why he's keeping Barnaby Joyce in his Shadow Cabinet. I think there's huge opportunities to make sure we've got new manufacturing jobs, new jobs that require that energy, that renewable energy, that affordable energy that we can generate, and all the maintenance too. I was in Bunbury the other week seeing what they're doing in terms of -
CONNELL: You sound like you're upselling the maintenance now, they need all this maintenance, they need all this work. That makes it -
GORMAN: I'll tell you a secret. A coal fired power station needs maintenance too, just as Mr Dutton's would too -
CONNELL: Jason, 20 seconds or so, so I don't get in trouble.
FALINSKI: I'd just say to Patrick, if there are all these benefits to the community, then why isn't he calling for renewable energy projects in his own electorate, like wind farms off the coast of his electorate? Why isn't Allegra Spender calling for them? Why isn't Monique Ryan calling for them?
GORMAN: There's huge solar penetration in my electorate -
FALINSKI: Why is -
GORMAN: From installing community batteries in Bayswater, Dianella.
FALINSKI: Yeah rooftop and David Littleproud has made it clear he is in favour of rooftop.
GORMAN: And my electorate used to have a coal fired power station.
FALINSKI: The point is, why are all these people who are so in favour of renewable energy projects in favor of them somewhere else? And the answer is because they won't stand, they won't stand up to their own community opposition.
CONNELL: Jason, good to have you back so you can harass Pat and I don't have to, we'll talk to you both, no, not next week I'm on holiday I'm not sure if I'm supposed to mention that. But anyway, I'll talk to you soon.
GORMAN: Thanks, Tom. And thank you, Jason.
CONNELL: All right, Patrick, Jason, thank you
FALINSKI: Thank you Pat, congratulations Pat.