TOM CONNELL, HOST: Alright, let's return to the Queensland election, someone that might be strapping on their helmet after not the best result for the Labor Party. Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman and former MP, former New South Wales Liberal Party President, Jason Falinski. Gentlemen, thanks both for your time. Pat, what are you sort of musing over as we sift through the entrails? Is it shovel endless money out the door, just bribe voters and it might mean they don't dislike us too much, because that was some serious cash spent by Steven Miles. Was it all worth it?
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Firstly, Tom, when you talk about wearing helmets, I'd encourage anyone in Sydney where they're now rolling out those e-scooters, to make sure you're wearing a helmet.
CONNELL: Never miss a message do you.
GORMAN: Helmets are really important, I ride my bike a lot, always wear the helmet. It's very important. I don't think there was a lot of surprise that after three terms, getting a fourth term for the Queensland Labor Government was going to be a very tough ask. Obviously with a result like this, where there are some lessons, both encouraging lessons in terms of - I think there are projections that the results could have been a lot worse. So there's lessons to be learned there. There's lessons where Labor has been able to hold on to some really hard to hold seats and really preserve a very strong Shadow Cabinet and team. I think that's been a really -
CONNELL: - So the lesson is don’t stay in government too long, because then you lose.
GORMAN: Well, you always want to win every election you contest Tom, but also, don't give up. I think one of the things that really impressed me about Steven Miles and his team was that they didn't give up. There were people who wanted them to tap the mat two or three months out. They said ‘no, we've got a job to do. We've got to go out there and fight for every vote.’ And they did that. And there's also a lesson in terms of hubris. The Greens were very overconfident, telling people they were going to win seven seats. Every time you saw them out in the media they were claiming they were going to win another seat. Turns out that actually that wasn't the result that they got -
CONNELL: - I'll get to them in a moment, I don’t want Jason to go too cold there as he's listening in to us, because -
GORMAN: Don’t let Jason get chilly.
CONNELL: Otherwise he thinks I've forgotten about him, Jason, what about you watching on from afar? There has been talk within the LNP and people after this campaign around the fact that debate over abortion was allowed to be an issue effectively by the LNP. Is this something federally, the Coalition need to sort out right now. Because there have been Nationals MPs saying that they believe there needs to be a debate over abortion access, even from a federal government point of view.
JASON FALINSKI, FORMER MP, FORMER NSW LIBERAL PARTY PRESIDENT: Look Tom Saturday night was a great result. I mean, almost as good as an Alan Joyce upgrade, if you can get one. But the fact is that abortion and discussions around abortion did hurt us, and I think the key message out of Queensland is David Crisafulli stuck to issues of values. And David and Steven Miles wanted to get involved into debates around culture wars, and every time we step into those wars, we lose votes. We are far better off focusing on economic issues, issues of values, and pointing out that Steven Miles treated the campaign like a going out of business sale. I mean, free lunches, free this, free everything. And voters were awake to that.
CONNELL: So do Peter Dutton and David Littleproud need to sort that issue out now then?
FALINSKI: I think they have. I mean, Sussan Ley, Jane Hume, Peter Dutton, David Littleproud have all made the obvious point, which is that abortions or laws regarding abortions are state-based laws. They're not Federal or Commonwealth laws. And you know, frankly, Tom I'm sorry to do this again, but I've got to call on the media here. This was a completely, a complete exercise in cynicism. Not since the ‘Mediscare’ campaign have we seen a campaign so dishonest and so transactional. And not a single person, or very few people, frankly, in the Fourth Estate called this out for what it was, and they are necessary - unnecessarily allowed Steven Miles and Robbie Katter, who were coordinated in this attempt, to scare a lot of people who had no need to be scared.
CONNELL: So Robbie Katter was working as part of this you think, in cahoots with Steven Miles?
FALINSKI: I have no evidence of that, Tom, but it did look very coordinated at different points in time, yes.
CONNELL: Okay, alright.
GORMAN: But Jason, you can't avoid the fact you also had two frontbenchers from the Federal Liberal and National Party, also in the last days of this campaign, coming out saying that the Commonwealth Parliament should engage in these debates. In what we saw from Jacinta Price and Barnaby Joyce backing in people like Matt Canavan and Alex Antic. I mean it's not just something that happened in Queensland. You had people from across the Liberal National spectrum saying that they do want to see this come into our federal politics. I agree it shouldn't happen, but Peter Dutton probably needs to go and tell those members of his frontbench that that is his view.
CONNELL: Okay, I thought Jason was going to go in, but I'm going to go on because we've got some other things to get to. Jason. What do you think of David Crisafulli even after the election he said - ?
FALINSKI: Oh no I can.
CONNELL: We're not going to - no, no, I know you can, and nobody doubts that. Nuclear power, he doesn't want to revisit it. It makes it kind of a quick sighted policy, doesn't it, from the Coalition side when not even a newly minted State LNP Premier wants to go near it?
FALINSKI: Yeah well Tom look, you know, in the last week, we've had Google, Microsoft, Meta, two or three other large companies in the United States and Europe basically engage in contracts for nuclear energy because they need to get to Net Zero. So when we have the best and the brightest in the world saying the only way to get to Net Zero efficiently and effectively is by having nuclear energy as part of the mix. I don't blame David Crisafulli for restating what he said during the campaign. But all of us need to have an honest discussion whether if you want to get to net zero, then nuclear power in Australia needs to be part of the mix. If it's not, we can't get there.
CONNELL: Okay. Let me ask you -
FALINSKI: You know, people look at our current energy requirements we have in Australia. Well, I just want to make one other point. The only way for us to get there, Net Zero, is by electrifying everything. On some estimates, that means we need to quadruple the amount of energy production we currently have by 2050. If you're not going to do that with nuclear energy, how are you going to do it?
CONNELL: Not interrupting, well, I am interrupting you, Jason, but I think sometimes you misconstrue me jumping in with disagreement or prodding you with time constraints, we've all got them. Pat in that spirit. Just be very clear on this one, because you've had a crack at the Greens. It's pretty easy, if you don't want them elected, just make sure your party doesn't preference them at the next election, they won't have any Queensland MPs
GORMAN: Tom preferences are decided by the parties, and all the parties talk to one another. I think your viewers are smart enough to know that. When it comes to the Greens though, I'll tell people, ‘don't put a number one next to the Greens when you're filling in a ballot.’ And I think -
CONNELL: But your party still says put them ahead of the Liberal Party, the LNP in Queensland, that gets them elected. That that's what happens.
FALINSKI: Yeah it’s appalling.
GORMAN: I think if you look at what happened in Queensland, we took a seat off the Greens. A seat the Greens only had in South Brisbane, the only reason they had it was because the Liberal National Party had put them there, but a decade Tom we've had this, you know, Tony Abbott started it -
CONNELL: Yes, but right now -
GORMAN: With Adam Bandt. They gave us Adam Bandt.
CONNELL: And the reason you might take it off them, I'll just say that I haven't officially called that today, so be careful. You can say that on other networks, but not on here, Patrick, but the only reason you are probably going to take that seat is because the LNP preferences you ahead of the Greens.
GORMAN: As they should.
CONNELL: But why don't you do the same for them?
FALINSKI: And we shouldn't.
GORMAN: Look what we know with the Liberal National Party is sometimes you can't have rational discussions. They've already gone stitched up a deal with One Nation. We've seen that a couple of elections in a row.
CONNELL: So Jason, you're saying that the LNP or the Liberal Party should stop playing nice and help the Greens get elected over Labor.
FALINSKI: Absolutely. Until the Labor Party is willing to preference the Liberal Party ahead of the Greens, we should stop doing them a favour. What Labor has been able to do for two, three decades is play this smart alec game of telling people, of allowing the Liberal Party to point out all the faults with the Greens while they sit there and collect their preferences and get themselves re-elected. It is time -
GORMAN: So Jason, let me ask you this.
FALINSKI: I know that Pat -
GORMAN: Jason, let me ask you this. Do you think Peter Dutton should stop voting with the Greens in Parliament? Because we’ve seen that on Help to Buy, we've seen it on so many things.
CONNELL: Little bit different to preferences -
GORMAN: But do you think it's time for Peter Dutton to finally also make a stand and stop voting with them in Parliament?
CONNELL: All right, I'm going to, I feel like I'm at Estimates, and I'm shielding my Minister here. But look, we've got one more thing to get onto. So Jason, you can tell Pat offline in our WhatsApp group what you think about that. Very quickly. Qantas, Patrick Gorman, a direct line, the PM was able to sort out some personal upgrades with the then CEO, Alan Joyce. What do you think voters make of that?
GORMAN: I think voters have heard from the Prime Minister that when he was Transport Minister, he spoke to the CEO of Virgin, Qantas, as you'd expect him to do. In terms of the upgrades that a range of Members of Parliament receive, including the Leader of the Opposition, Bridget Mackenzie, the shadow transport spokesperson. These all must be declared in the appropriate way and the only reason we are talking about this -
CONNELL: They can get them if available. The PM seemingly, the reason we are talking about the PM, seemingly was able to guarantee them. Jason was losing access to the chairman lounge the biggest blow in your personal life?
FALINSKI: No, Tom, it wasn't. But thank you for your care and concern though. Look I guess every Australian wishes they had access to the CEO of Qantas to get upgrades and Pat if you're saying Bridget McKenzie took upgrades, then she shouldn't have. What we have here is a classic example of policy capture by producers, and the only result is we saw that -
CONNELL: So should all MPs refuse the Chairman's Lounge. Jason, would that be a simple policy?
FALINSKI: No, Tom I don't think that's right, because I don't think that there is anyone that I know of, at least, who would have their vote influenced by the fact that they have access to the chairman's lounge. It's not that fantastic, you take it if you can get it, but it's not it's not something that you can have your vote sold over. But taking upgrades when you're the Minister relevant for the regulation of that particular company or sector, that's something you should not do, and if Bridget’s done that, frankly as shadow either.
CONNELL: Well, I think basically at least half the MPs have had upgrades, you get eligible for them, or you certainly get in the short line once you have the chairman's access. Anyway, Patrick, Jason, thank you. Talk soon.
GORMAN: Thanks Tom.