KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Welcome back to the programme. Joining me live in the studios, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister Pat Gorman, what do you make of the criticism of Mr. Albanese for not going to NATO?
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: I think we know that the Liberal Party and the National Party, if the Prime Minister was going, they'd be complaining about it, if he's not going. The Deputy Prime Minister is attending. It's an important summit - we're sending the Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister. But also they weren't making these complaints when Malcolm Turnbull sent Marise Payne to NATO in 2018, I didn't see Simon Birmingham or Paul Fletcher out then saying that that was somehow a snub. So it does seem like they're kind of looking for something to complain about. But even when I saw what Simon Birmingham had to say, I don't think his heart was in it.
GILBERT: The Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister will be there, given other world leaders are there, there is an argument to say that the Prime Minister could justify going, but is he not going because of the cost of living pressures facing the nation, now that he wants to say 'this is my top priority?'
GORMAN: I think if you look at the work that NATO does, obviously, it's heavily in the defence space. So sending the Defence Minister/Deputy Prime Minister makes quite a lot of sense, given the nature of those discussions. The Prime Minister attends international summits, and indeed has hosted a range of international leaders here in recent times, including Chinese Premier Li in my own electorate, just a few weeks ago. So of course, the Prime Minister engages in international affairs, a range of government ministers do so. I think it's an appropriate decision to send the Deputy Prime Minister.
GILBERT: You mentioned your seat of Perth, the Greens have announced their hit list for their campaigning during the winter break, and your seat's on it. What do you make of that?
GORMAN: The Greens have targeted me at every election that I've contested. They always say that they're going to win it. They always say, 'oh, maybe next time,' their vote doesn't move around all that much. What I did see from the Greens, though, is that it kind of shows that what they've been saying for weeks and weeks, they're not doing - they in fact are doing. Which is, trying to turn international human misery into domestic political opportunism. And I think Australians will see through that, I really do. And I know my community, a diverse multicultural community, will probably, if a Greens senator lobs up on their door saying, 'you know, we want you to shift your vote, because of something that happened in the Senate around foreign policy,' I think it's just the Greens trying to turn misery into politics. And I just don't think my community will welcome that at all.
GILBERT: Do you think that Fatima Payman has been the pawn in that?
GORMAN: I'll leave you to analyse how the Greens have engaged on this question. I noticed that when asked about these questions yesterday, Adam Bandt couldn't answer a range of questions about how they've engaged with Senator Payman. So they're really questions for them. Again, I know in my electorate, I'm going to be honest - Fatima Payman is a friend of mine. I'm a West Australian, I campaigned with her at the last election. We campaigned for things like getting aged care workers a pay rise. We campaigned for things like investing in early childhood education by making -
GILBERT: Are you hopeful of getting her back in the party room?
GORMAN: Of course, if she chooses to abide by the commitments she made when she was preselected, the commitments she made when she walked into the caucus room. Of course, she'd be welcomed back. But until then, we're in the situation we're in.
GILBERT: And in the meantime, that motion that was moved, potentially another one coming later in the week. Do you feel that that is just the Greens grandstanding for their own political gain? Is that your read?
GORMAN: It's hard to understand what it is otherwise. So, I know and you know, and even the Greens Party knows that motions in the Senate do not shift foreign policy. And a motion in the Senate is not how you do recognition of a state. I don't know why the Greens can't bring themselves to say they support a two-state solution. That's the amendment that we put up last week. That would have been a sensible thing for the Greens to agree to. A two-state solution is part of building an enduring peace. I want an enduring peace. The Greens, again, whether it be door knocking in my electorate, or the electorates of my colleagues, or stunts in the Senate, they seem to be much more focused on the politics than on the people who are at the heart of this really horrific conflict.
GILBERT: How severe is the frustration among your colleagues at the behaviour of Senator Payman, in the sense that it helps give this issue the spotlight when you wanted to be focusing on your cost of living response?
GORMAN: We are focused on our cost of living response. I've been out talking to my community, writing out newsletters -
GILBERT: This has been a big distraction, though, hasn't it?
GORMAN: Obviously, when you've got a Government Senator doing these things it does mean that yourself and others want to talk about it. But I'm pretty happy to say I think there's been a lot of airtime given to this issue. I think Caucus today has been pretty clear about how we conduct ourselves. That's consistent with how the Labor Party has conducted ourselves for decades and decades. I always put it this way; that it's not the Labor Party or the Caucus, that's changed. We've had one individual senator change their approach. But when it comes to what I can do, what I can control, is what I spend my time doing. That is, as I was out in Bayswater, the other week doorknocking, talking about tax cuts, talking about expanding paid parental leave. Things that make a real difference for my community -
GILBERT: Are you confident you will hold the seat?
GORMAN: I never take the support of the Australian people for granted. I don't think any politician should. But I'll just say this; the Greens have always talked a big game in Perth, and they've always come up short. I do what I can to take the local values of my community, bring them here to Canberra and turn them into national results. I believe that I've done that when it comes to making sure that the lowest paid in my community get a pay rise. That happened yesterday. I believe I've done that, when it comes to when people are under a huge cost of living pressure - taking action. And I've done that across working with colleagues, including the Treasurer, on Rent Assistance increases, on getting taxpayers in my electorate a tax cut - all of these things where, again, it's not about what you say or whether you sound good, is that what you actually get done. And the only people, the only government that will deliver for my community - and I know this - they have returned Labor members since 1983. The only took form of government that delivers for my community is a Labor Government.
GILBERT: The finally issue I want to ask you quickly, we're almost out of time, but the Economic Regulation Authority in WA has backed your argument on nuclear. Rejecting the Coalition's position on this. Is the view in WA - and I know Roger Cook's been strong on this as well - it's a resources state. Are they open, though to the nuclear argument saying 'it's not the only thing but it should be on the table in the latter part of this century'?
GORMAN: We're a resources state and that means we are full of practical people who work in detail, work in engineering, work in geological surveys. None of that detail is there when it comes to Mr. Dutton's plan. And those people who do know the detail, such as the Economic Regulation Authority, and the chair in Western Australia have pointed out that actually, with the rollout of renewables, the only way to make Mr. Dutton's expensive nuclear reactors work is to push renewables out of the grid. That means turning off people's solar panels on their roofs. And it doesn't make sense for WA. It's doing what the Liberal Party have done for decades and decades. They come up with something here in Canberra, they try and force it on WA without talking to anyone in Western Australia. Mr. Dutton has not been to Western Australia since he announced his plan. He has never been to Collie, the place that he says is perfect for nuclear reactor. Mr Dutton has never been there. Not once in his entire 22-year political career. So it's very much Mr Dutton and his Canberra colleagues trying to force something on my state of Western Australia that, as the reports today show, will not work and will not bring power bills down. It'll send them up.
GILBERT: Assistant Minister to the PM Pat Gorman. Thanks, appreciate it.
GORMAN: Thanks, Kieran.