OLIVER PETERSON, HOST: Joining me in the studios this afternoon is the Member for Perth and the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman. It's good to see you.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: Good to see you, Oly, and good chat to your listeners.
PETERSON: The Anzac Day commemorations are already underway. I think you've been to Morley Primary School this afternoon?
GORMAN: I was at Morley Primary School, and the year six student leaders put on an incredible commemoration for Anzac Day. And it was really nice to see the students being able to do that. And I was talking to the principal there, talking about how they hadn't been able to do that in recent times, with the last few years with COVID restrictions and other things. And so just to get back to what teachers know as normal, but some of the students don't know as normal was really good to see. The Bedford RSL were also there, represented, which was really great.
PETERSON: Okay, I want to come to more Anzac Day talk in just a moment. But that breaking news out of Sydney a little bit earlier, 12 people were arrested seven charged by being questioned by police over a links to that terrorist attack in a church in Sydney last week. Do you have any more information - has the Government been briefed?
GORMAN: Well, of course, this is an operation that's involved both the New South Wales Police, but also the Australian Federal Police and ASIO. So I always thank our national security officers who make sure that, you know, they are doing this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, keeping an eye on the threats that do exist in Australia. And we have to take those seriously. And one of the things - I saw the message from the ASIO Director General today, who was also up at the Press Club, is that we all have a responsibility when it comes to our national security. That if we see something we have to pass that message on to appropriate authorities. And when it comes to this particular operation, I think we've seen some 400 police across New South Wales and Federal Police and other officials, taking this action. It is encouraging that this was a preventative action. Obviously what we saw in Sydney just a few weeks ago with that horrible stabbing at the church. I don't want to see things like that happening in Australia and our national security officials play such an important role in keeping Australians safe. And for those that are listening, I say thank you.
PETERSON: And there's a link between that Wakeley offender and those who were arrested. Those search warrants continuing. The suspects, they say, share extremist ideology. They're juveniles, Patrick. That's a worry.
GORMAN: Of course it is. I think for any parent, it's always a worry that you worry about; what your child might be exposed to when you're not around, when you're not watching or when they're on a screen. And so one of the things that is really important for all parents, is that we do take esafety really seriously. I'd encourage any parents who have any worries - and I'm sure seeing this news today, parents would have concerns - I encourage those parents to get on to esafety.gov.au to get the information about what you can do as a parent. But I also recognise that it's not just parents and their children, the entire community has a responsibility to make sure that children aren't exposed to this radicalisation content, this extremist content that can go very quickly from being in the online world into the real world. So we've got to take those threats seriously, but also take our responsibilities to give children the support they need, that if they hear something that their friend is doing, that they can actually - children and parents - feel like they can take action.
PETERSON: Ominous warning, night before Anzac Day, these arrests are being made in Sydney. Is there any link there, Patrick, that you've been briefed on?
GORMAN: The reporting that I've seen, the public reporting, says that there is not a link. And I think that's really important, because I'm expecting that when we get to tomorrow morning for dawn services, we're going to see huge attendance here in Western Australia. I think that will be our biggest in many, many years, if not our biggest ever.
PETERSON: Talking of the eSafety Commissioner before - and linking a few of these issues together - the Government, and you've got bipartisan support at the moment from the Opposition about some of what we can see and access on social media, arguments are being made that this could be a freedom of speech issue. But some of that content that is now on what is a mainstream platform, or was, something like X (formerly Twitter) - does there need to be more responsibility here from the platforms to remove this stuff?
GORMAN: Of course there is, I actually think, if you think about where social media platforms started, they started about trying to bring people together and making it easier to organise a birthday party or share some photos of your family. Now there has just been these platforms, they're just hosting all of this abhorrent content, and then picking ridiculous lawsuits with you know, serious governments like the Australian Government to say that, you know, they should have a right to help spread information - that we've even seen advice saying that the content the Australian Government is trying to get 'Twitter/X/whatever Elon Musk decides to call it next week,' the material we're trying to get them to take down, we've got advice that says, 'this encourages radicalisation and terrorist activity.' It's what's known as a 'Class 1 material.' And that's why the eSafety Commissioner has asked for it to be taken down. And we'll continue to prosecute that, because our job isn't to act in the interest of a social media company that's owned by some foreign billionaire. Our job is to act in the national interest.
PETERSON: What about the fact that - and I know we sort of pulling at hairs here - but what happened at Bondi Junction is not considered a terror attack, but what happened in the church was. A lot of those images that you can find, or those videos, which are pretty easy to to scope out these days on social media. So the Bondi Junction ones can effectively stay there, the other ones can't?
GORMAN: So, when it comes to some of these materials there, some of those distinctions don't exist. It's actually about the the nature of the content of what you see in those pieces of footage. Obviously, those obligations apply to broadcasters, be they radio, television, or print, there's a whole range of requirements upon them. So, what I recognise is the independent eSafety Commissioner has made a decision about a particular piece of content. We've asked for that to be removed. I hope that we're not seeing more of these debates, because the reason we're having this debate is because of a horrible attack, or you've mentioned two attacks. And of course, we want to see where it is deemed that is that that Class 1 material, that it is removed.
PETERSON: And I think, you know, last in that conversation about people's right to see this or not, it's ultimately is all about particularly protecting young eyes.
GORMAN: Yeah.
PETERSON: And we're talking about children in two forms. One - is it about, now, looking at increasing the age that you can access social media? The Opposition, having that discussion today, David Coleman, the Shadow Communications Minister. You're meant to be 13, before you can access social media, do you need to be older?
GORMAN: I'm really comfortable having that conversation about where is the role for government to set those requirements. Where's the role for the social media companies themselves to just have a bit of human decency? I think if we talk about what we've been thinking about with the challenges with Elon Musk, it's actually about, you know, these companies could choose to have higher standards, they're choosing to go to the bottom of the barrel, they're choosing to have low standards. And then there's a question about what does Government do if we can't lift standards in other ways? I'm following - as I'm sure you and others are - closely what's happening in Florida, where they're looking at legislating a higher requirement for juveniles to access social media platforms. We'll watch that closely about how that plays out. But I think everyone comes to this with a pretty similar intention, which is: how do we best both protect children from some of the worst bits of the Internet, but also, how do we make sure that we give children the tools that they need to be critical viewers themselves and to analyse what they see? Because I think your your listeners know not everything you see on social media is true. A lot of it is BS, as they say. But when your mind is forming, and you're young, sometimes it's harder to make those distinctions. So we've all got a role to play in making sure that young people in particular, can make that really clear distinction between what is what is real, what is not, and what is in that what is actually in their interest and how do they protect themselves online as well.
PETERSON: Speaking of the US, Senate over there deciding that TikTok will either need to be banned or sold to a American company, Senator James Paterson, obviously the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, joined me a bit earlier, thinks we should do something similar in Australia. Is that on your agenda, Patrick?
GORMAN: Well, we're watching really closely what's happening in the US and obviously, it's gone through the Congress, but it's now on for consideration by President Biden, so we're watching that really closely. We haven't taken the same action in our legislative program at this stage.
PETERSON: Are you on TikTok?
GORMAN: I'm not no. But, I understand that millions and millions of Australians enjoy that platform.
PETERSON: Should we be? Should anybody be on TikTok?
GORMAN: Look, I obviously - I don't have it on my Government phone. I don't have it on any of my devices at all. I don't have an account. So, I think I come back to that principle of: how do you make sure that all of these platforms actually comply with what we expect that - if you're gonna operate in Australia, operate within Australian law. If you can't do that, one way or another, get out of here. As for TikTok and that potential TikTok ban, I'll note just for your listeners, the US is not looking to ban TikTok from being able to be used in the States, they want to change who owns TikTok. That is, changing their sort of capital investment structure. So, I don't think you're gonna see the US -
PETERSON: Get rid of TikTok? Just change its owners?
GORMAN: Yeah, they want to see it owned by some American company.
PETERSON: Coming back to Anzac Day - and I know you've got a lot of engagements tomorrow as the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister - you're responsible for overseeing the public service. Public sector workers are able to work tomorrow and change the public holiday. Is that right?
GORMAN: Well, I think if you know about the diversity of the public sector, we've got people who work in Home Affairs, often who need to work on public holidays. We've got people who do work for Border Force, you know, they're working every hour of every day at airports and other things. We were talking earlier today about the important work that AFP and our national security agencies do. So, there are people who do - and have done for decades - worked on public holidays, be it Christmas, New Years, or indeed, the more solemn occasions such as Anzac Day. I think, when it comes to those flexible arrangements, they were in place under Prime Minister Abbott. They were in place under Prime Minister Turnbull. They were in place under most of the time of Prime Minister Morrison, as well -
PETERSON: - But they did change under the Albanese Government to give some of those other back office staff are a bit more flexibility.
GORMAN: Yeah, we reverted to the Tony Abbott/Malcolm Turnbull arrangements. That's correct.
PETERSON: So, are you aware - is anybody working tomorrow and saying, 'I want to take that public holiday on another date'?
GORMAN: Oh, look, again, there are a range of people who do work, I'm sure there's -
PETERSON: - well, I'm working tomorrow. Exactly, but, does it disappoint you that people might think, 'oh, it's just a public holiday.'
GORMAN: I deal with public service every day. And I actually think you find some of your most proud Australians in the public service. They give so much of themselves. They do it because they believe in it. And sometimes I think some of these arguments, they can get so silly. I'm also responsible for the National Australia Day Council. Now, we had a question in Senate Estimates from the Liberal-National Party saying 'oh, why are people in the National Australia Council working on Australia Day?' And I thought -
PETERSON: - Well, they've got to work. I get that.
GORMAN: Yeah they've got to work. They deliver all of these events. So, it's about flexibility. It's about making sure we can provide the services that Australians rely upon -
PETERSON: - But they were anyway, like - I mean, if you were rostered on tomorrow, and you work for the Australian Federal Police or Home Affairs, you'd be working anyway, regardless. But why did the law need to change, Patrick?
GORMAN: It's not a change in the law. It's a reversion back to the previous regulations that stood during the time of Prime Minister Abbott and Prime Minister Turnbull. And, again, I just note that this is also where you do have people who are required to work to make sure that they have that flexibility to take that time off at another time, so they can spend time with their family -
PETERSON: So, it's not sort of carte blanche - 'hey, anyone who wants to work today can work today and take you know, next Friday off,' no one's doing that?
GORMAN: I think it's got, as far as I'm aware, very limited uptake, almost entirely for operational reasons, where you need people to be doing essential work of the public service. Of course, you've then got agencies like Department of Veterans Affairs where many people from the Department of Veterans Affairs work on the day. So, what we're also trying to make sure is that those who do help deliver Anzac Day and Anzac commemorations can, as it's an incredibly busy day for many people in the public service who helped deliver these events, they can get some time off at another time. And I'd also just take the opportunity, I think we know from RSLWA, from volunteers across WA, so many people help make Anzac Day happen in a smooth, respectful, solemn way. And if I can just use your radio program to thank everyone, be they a public servant, a volunteer, a serving member of the Defence Force, everyone who makes Anzac Day that really unique Australian and New Zealand commemoration that we have - I really want to thank them.
PETERSON: Do you think it's the most important day in our national calendar?
GORMAN: I think it's the one that talks the most to who we are as Australians and how we seek to reflect ourselves to the world. I don't want to get into a debate where I'm sort of choosing against Christmas or Easter, which have deep religious importance for people -
PETERSON: - I do. Because I think this really creates our national fabric and whether you were born here or you weren't, doesn't matter, there's so much tomorrow and I just find that the you know, even the public holiday discussion, just erodes the idea of how important this is on the calendar. I think it brings people together more than any other day in the year.
GORMAN: Yeah. And I think for some of the other people who do do work on the day, like I'm sure one of the reasons you're going to be broadcasting tomorrow is because you actually want to share and help provide the stories and messages of Anzac Day. I remember when I was a student I used to work at McDonald's and would go in early on Anzac Day to go and make 450 bacon and egg McMuffins for the Bicton RSL. People feel like they make contributions in different ways. And I just encourage everyone get to an Anzac service. I recognise some people, where they have mobility issues or transport issues, getting to a dawn service is a challenge. But that's that's no obstacle - there's events over in my electorate tomorrow. At Mount Hawthorn at 11am, there's the Axford Park commemoration, and they have a little flyover thanks to Royal Australian Air Force. You've got small, Bedford RSL in Inglewood at two o'clock in the afternoon. There's so many different ways that you can show your respect and be part of this. I do agree with you on this part Oly, which is - it is the public holiday and that national day that reflects so much of who we are and our national story.
PETERSON: And there's even the opportunity to still light that candle and stand at the end of the driveway, put 6PR on because Millsy and Karl will be broadcasting the dawn service from Kings Park. And if you can't get - I think that's been one of the best things through the COVID years is to create that driveway dawn service and long may that continue if you can't get to a dawn service.
GORMAN: That's it, there's always a way to show your respects. There is always a way to be part of this important national day. And I think whether it's at the end of a driveway, whether it's by attending a service throughout the day, or if it's by participating one of the parades or other things. It really is a moment where you reflect on just what an incredible country we are and how fortunate we are to have Australia's Armed Services who have protected this country for decades and decades.
PETERSON: Patrick Gorman, thanks for coming into the studios today. I know you've got a busy day tomorrow and lots of Anzac commemorations to get to and I'm sure you will be making your way through the electorate.Good to see you.
GORMAN: Thank you Oly.
PETERSON: That is the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister and Member for Perth, Patrick Gorman, joining us in the studios this afternoon.