ADAM SHIRLEY, HOST: Well, just last evening, Patrick Gorman, the Assistant Minister for the Public Service was addressing the assembled servants stating that it's time to get on board with AI. Quote, 'there is no other option' - with a big dollop of caution, you said though, Patrick Gorman, Assistant Minister for the Public Service. Good morning to you, and thanks for making time for us today.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: Good morning, Adam. Good morning to your listeners.
SHIRLEY: So, we had a little go at trying to provide you with an AI assistant in the sort of work that you might require from your senior public servants. This is what we came up with:
AUTOMATED ROBOT VOICE: "A feasibility assessment is projected to take four to six years to complete."
SHIRLEY: Now, I'm not sure I want that kind of person or robot dealing with my feasibility assistance on a serious note. I mean, how big is this field?
GORMAN: Well, one of my messages last night was to remind public servants and the public at large that we are already using artificial intelligence in so much of the work that the public sector does. We've got the Australian Bureau of Statistics doing it, in updating classifications of occupations. I talked about SmartGates, which we all take for granted now when we go through an airport, travelling overseas. They process 165 million passenger movements a year. That's artificial intelligence and big computing doing work that used to be done by humans. Actually enabling Border Force to do more human interactions with those who need assistance as they're moving through our airports. So it's actually not about taking away the human, it's about making sure that we can put the human where they're needed most.
SHIRLEY: I've got 'Six Million Dollar' vibes here; the man who was bigger, faster, stronger, rebuilding humans to do even more. Again, I'm referencing pop culture. But how aware do you think your average citizen is that all this is already being applied and used?
GORMAN: I would think that if we were to go and do a survey of the public at large, they would say, 'we want you to deliver services and policy well.' And there is a high level of trust in the public service to do that in ways that are going to be best for what Australia needs to do. We're also looking, of course, at what other countries are doing. The United States, the United Kingdom, Singapore -
SHIRLEY: China?
GORMAN: Well, I think every country is looking at these technologies, and how can they help serve citizens. And that was my other really important message last night. The human factor is so important. We've seen in things like Robodebt - an absolute scandal - we saw that under the Robodebt scheme. You know, we let the machines take over and the human element was removed. That's definitely not something that I want to see under any government again, that was that was a completely unacceptable scandal. But, again, we are using these technologies today, and we should have public servants learning from one another about how it is enabling them to do more work on some of our most pressing challenges.
SHIRLEY: If it's your contention, that there's good AI and bad AI - to put it bluntly - how can a public servant, an Assistant Minister tell the difference before it's used?
GORMAN: We've got to uplift that skill. It's as simple as that.
SHIRLEY: What does that mean though? I hear that phrase a lot. What is 'uplifting skill?'
GORMAN: Well, I think you and I would agree, Adam, that if we were to look around the public service, there are people who want to learn more about how these technologies could apply in their current work or their future work. So I would encourage people to talk to Geoscience Australia who are already using AI in some of the work that they're doing for mapping of Australia, and looking at some of the future challenges we have in terms of climate and other areas. I would encourage public servants to talk to people who are part of the trial that we've signed up to with Microsoft, the Copilot 365 trial, and just to explain to your listeners, what that trial is about, that's about having thousands of public servants engaging with these new technologies that are going to be on our desktops, they're going to be there. And so the question now is not, 'is the technology there?' It's going to be built into our software systems. The question is, 'how do we make sure that people know how to use it in ways that is responsible and careful?' And that's exactly what we're doing. And one of the things, for those who are not on that trial, which is the vast majority of public servants, is that we're going to collect all of the data from those who've done it and look to find what is the best way to use these technologies across the public sector more generally.
SHIRLEY: As with rapidly emerging tech and the way it's used, Minister, there will be glitches, there will be some, some hiccups, this text to highlight your example of the SmartGate tech, though - 'I was returning from overseas just on the weekend, and I'm not opposed to AI. But I was caught up in SmartGates that were not very smart, they needed a lot of human intervention. When thousands arrived at once and the SmartGates could not cope. It was very awkward. I think we have a long way to go.' So there will be glitches and hiccups. But Patrick Gorman, are we investing our trust too fast, ahead of what the tech can actually handle?
GORMAN: Well, I think we've got to accept that this tech, as I also outlined last night, it's not just technology that's used by the public service. It's also a technology that's being used by people who interact with the public service. So it's also really important that we can't just step aside and say 'that's not for us.'
SHIRLEY: No, but if we use the SmartGate example, where it clearly wasn't up to the job, and in the end, the humans had to take over, do we need to be even more cautious about in what applications, in what situations, so we're not actually hobbling ourselves?
GORMAN: I think the SmartGate is a good example, because it processes about 81 per cent of passenger movement who are eligible to use the SmartGate. So it's not it's not about saying every person, every time, it's about saying that there is a cohort that you can process quicker. Let's do that. And let's make sure that that then frees up those public servants to deal with those more complex cases. And we're doing that also with the Australian Taxation Office. They're using artificial intelligence to develop analytical models to help identify taxpayer populations, that where they might have further risks and warrant further review, but also using it to avoid unnecessarily reviewing taxpayers, where they have been compliant. And again, where we've got a limited number of public servants we can apply to all of these important pieces of work. Let's make sure we're looking at the ones that give us the best national benefit. And that's exactly what I'm advocating for.
SHIRLEY: Adam Shirley with you on ABC Radio Canberra, as is the Federal Assistant Minister for the Public Service, Patrick Gorman. Seventeen to nine. AI, are you already using it? Is it part of what you have to do at work? If you're a public servant - do you support what your minister is saying about the technology? Or, are you sceptical, even cynical about it? Whatever your view, let us know on 1300 681 666. I think it's fair to say rightly or wrongly, Minister, that at this point in time, AI still has a reputation problem. For example, this text says 'we all know how AI ends. We have all seen The Matrix and Terminator documentaries.' Now, you will have evidence and an argument to the contrary, I'm sure Minister, but is there a reputational problem that AI has that you and others need to try and change or get over?
GORMAN: My job is to advocate for a fantastic public service for Australia. That's my job. I think we can always look at different particular AI products and say 'was that right for us or not?' We're looking at one at the moment with Microsoft Copilot. I enjoy a good science fiction, and I particularly enjoy a good time travel movie. So, I've always enjoyed the Terminator series. But I think we've got to look at what we're talking about - it is really practical stuff. How do we give people faster tax returns? How do we reduce unnecessary audits? How do we help people get out of the airport quicker to see their loved one? And I think the other thing is worth noting is that everything we're talking about when it comes to the public service and artificial intelligence and the use of technology is that firstly, technology has radically transformed the public service. Back in 1966, across the entire public service, we had just 34 computers across every department, every agency. Now, most people have one or more computers available to them provided by their departments. And I think, also, it's worth noting that this does still sit alongside those APS Values that we expect of every public servant. Impartiality, accountability, ethical action - all of those things are still there. But, we recognise that, as I said, these technologies are sitting on people's desktops today. I want to manage and work with public servants to make sure we're using them in ways that deliver for the Australian people, rather than a haphazard approach, which I don't think would benefit anyone.
SHIRLEY: Patrick Gorman, we're short of time - I was intending also to ask you about the Net Zero Authority Bill the Government has brought in, can we book a time to talk about that at length at another date? We're just a bit short on Breakfast for other things we're doing.
GORMAN: Adam, I'll be back to talk about that. And I'm going to stay tuned in to listen to all of the information about the Bluey Dollarbucks.
SHIRLEY: Okay, we need to get involved and get in the ballot. That much is true. Thank you for your time today, Minister. Thank you, that is Minister Patrick Gorman, Assistant Minister for the Public Service.