TOM CONNELL, HOST: Welcome back. The Prime Minister about to touch down any minute in the US for a four-day state visit. He's meeting the President, Joe Biden, there. As part of the visit, he'll also lobby Congress to pass the President's bill. It does, amongst other things, promise billions of dollars for the AUKUS submarine programme. It also pledges aid, military aid for Israel and Ukraine. Let's talk now to my panel; Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister Patrick Gorman and NSW Liberal Party President Jason Falinski. Thanks both for your time. Patrick, it's interesting because we sort of talk around AUKUS as being this fait accompli, but it does remind us of a pretty perilous domestic situation - that it's not legal at the moment for the US to actually sell us these submarines we're supposed to be getting one day.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: Well, AUKUS is a long-term commitment between our three nations. And of course we respect that the United States have to go through their domestic political processes, just as we do whenever you have governments sign treaties with other nations or trade agreements, that's very normal. I'm not going to comment on the domestic navigation through the Congress. That's obviously for elected representatives of the United States to decide. But what I've seen from conversations with visiting members of Congress here in Australia is strong support for AUKUS. A recognition that this is of benefit to both Australia, the United States and of course, the United Kingdom. This will be on the agenda for discussions between Prime Minister Albanese, President Biden. But it's also, I'll just remind your viewers; AUKUS isn't just about one year, one announcement, it's a multi-decade commitment to the security of our nations.
CONNELL: What do you think, Jason, that the current situation in the US, I mean, it could get more chaotic, I guess, for want of a better word, if Donald Trump wins the presidency - which he's every chance to - do we need more of a ‘Plan B’ than we have right now?
JASON FALINSKI, NSW LIBERAL PARTY PRESIDENT: Tom, you know, this was like the two budget surpluses, an agreement that was gifted to this government by Peter Dutton and Josh Frydenberg. I don't understand what the issues are, other than maybe, as Patrick describes it, that there's always these sorts of mechanical issues going on in the background and they're just being highlighted at the moment because of particularly difficult situations in geopolitics at the moment. But I mean we don't need a Plan B, we just need to get on with Plan A.
CONNELL: Right. So, there's there's no way in the world that the current AUKUS deal with the US will fall over? You’ve just got complete confidence in everything that's happening in US domestic politics?
FALINSKI: I have very strong confidence in the alliance that Australia has with the United States and with the United Kingdom. And I believe that we have worked incredibly well over the last almost 100 years now to ensure that this world is a safer and more peaceful one and that should continue into the future.
CONNELL: Alright. He's going to visit - after this, Patrick, we'll see the PM pop off to China. Interesting, the sort of decks cleared, and it's more good news, we think, in terms of tariffs. But is there a bit of quid-pro-quo? The Darwin Port lease; Labor has said for years this really could potentially be a security risk and now suddenly it's all okay? Is this what we're giving China in exchange?
GORMAN: No, we make these arguments on their merits, as we did when it came to tariffs on wine. I know that that latest development is something that's well welcomed by our wine producers here in Western Australia who produce great products. And obviously, when it comes to various trade disagreements, trade should be something which is win-win. And in the case of wine, you get great Australian, preferably Western Australian, wine. And that's a benefit for China, a benefit for producers here. When it comes to a range of matters; I just heard before in Jason's previous answer that he was happy to take credit for the Albanese Government's achievements, saying that somehow they were all thanks to Peter Dutton. We can't undo everything that was done under the previous government. I'm not going to pretend that we can. But what we have to acknowledge is that what we want in terms of the Australia-China relationship is a stable relationship where we disagree where we must, but also cooperate where we can. And there's huge benefits for Australia and China in doing so.
CONNELL: Return serve to that one, Jason?
FALINSKI: Oh, sure. I was just chuckling away here because I half expected that answer to start with: “While I was out doorknocking wineries in my electorate on the weekend, I found that they were very in favour of this new arrangement.”
CONNELL: Jason, you don’t have many wineries in inner-city Perth.
GORMAN: Jason, in the electorate of Perth, you doorknock wine bars not wineries!
FALINSKI: Sorry, I stand corrected; Pat was doorknocking wine bars on the weekend, so thank you. But look, Pat's absolutely right: free trade results in a richer world. The Economist made the point that globalisation over the last three decades has seen the number of people living in totalitarian states fall from 50% to about 25%. That poverty has declined - that is, people living on less than $2.15 US dollars a day - has declined from 25% to close to 6%. And income inequality around the world has never closed as quickly over the last three decades as it has at any other time in the world. And that has been solely due to the fact of globalisation. So, what we are seeing, which is the reversing of globalisation, industry policy coming back to the fore and I'm sorry, I'm happy to give Pat and the current Prime Minister credit for the reintroduction of industry policy, but what we have seen is that actually makes people less well off, reduces prosperity. So, look, what we are seeing in terms of the thawing of relationships with China is a positive thing as long as we don't compromise our values and our commitment to freedom both here and around the world.
CONNELL: Is that happening, Jason? Because from where I’m sitting, you know, the key areas of “do not compromise” the Coalition used to talk about. Have they, has there been any compromise, in your view?
FALINSKI: No, I haven't seen any compromise from the current government. I mean, obviously there would be some of us who both would like to see -
CONNELL: So it’s a thumbs up?
FALINSKI: - the previous government and this government push harder on issues like Tibet and Uyghurs and those sorts of issues, but I understand the sensitivities in relation to that. And so we live in the real world and we have to deal with real politique. But people like myself, as you know, Tom, and I suspect Pat can't say, but I suspect he would fall in that column, too.
CONNELL: Alright. Now, Pat, whether it's the wine bars or the local residents, I guess if you went doorknocking about the Voice, you'd get a very different view on your electorate compared to the rest of the country. What do you think Labor needs to take from the referendum result, in terms of as a government?
GORMAN: Well, I think the first thing is, of course, to accept the result that was given to us by the Australian people. That's why we go to referendums, is to ask a question about the Constitution and then to, of course, act upon the decision the Australian people make. And that's exactly what we've done over the last week when it comes to how we act on that decision. What I've said a number of times is that I think there is a broad agreement that the way we are doing things is not working and not giving the outcomes that the Australian people expect. We need to keep looking at new ways, new partnerships, new ideas to Close the Gap because it is taking too long. We're now, sort of, 15 years into that process. Many of the statistics are not on track. That responsibility falls on governments at all levels and it falls on communities. And we'll continue to listen to communities to work with them about how do we get those better outcomes. One of the things I'd note during the referendum campaign was there was a lot of success stories, as well. Where things are changing dramatically. I saw some of that down Albany a few weeks ago where one of the local organisations down there is getting some really great outcomes when it comes to youth engagement in schooling. So, let's look at those success stories too.
CONNELL: And in terms of the Coalition's response, there was a quick move to have a Royal Commission last week. It just does make you wonder, you know, urgency on this matter - Peter Dutton said there was urgency on it - but nothing along these lines was ever proposed or pursued when the Coalition was in government for quite a long time. Did the Coalition just not do enough in this area? Because the whole process was started, it took years and never even progressed to actually having a referendum, Jason, and I guess that also crowds out, to a degree, the so-called ‘pragmatic approach’ the Coalition is now talking about.
FALINSKI: Well, Tom, there are a number of things I'd say to that. First of all, the mistakes of the past cannot be used as an excuse for not making the right decisions in the present. Secondly, we did have a clear plan around the Voice. Our pathway to that was through local and state-based Voices, getting Australians used to the idea before we had a referendum on that issue. Could we have moved faster? It's difficult when you shut down the entire country due to a global pandemic, but undoubtedly there were times when perhaps we should have stepped on the accelerator more than we did. I think that what Pat said is very true; we know that Australians, Australian governments are committed to Closing the Gap. There's been a lot of money and resources that's been dedicated to that proposition. We are getting something wrong; need to understand what that is, so that we can not make the same mistakes that we've been making into the future.
CONNELL: So, what about your electorate, Jason? Last I checked, I think it was 50.1 or 50.2% -
FALINSKI: - Former electorate, former electorate.
CONNELL: Well, it'll always have that Falinski tinge to it. But what do you think it says broadly around those Teal seats? Because these are the ones that all supported this referendum and the Coalition wasn't certainly speaking to a lot of them, I guess, in this debate. Are the Teal seats, most of them, almost gone from a Coalition point of view?
FALINSKI: Look, I don't think so, Tom. And if you can tell me what the economy looks like, what the big issues of the day will be in 18 months, then both you and I, (A): should quit our jobs now and go and do other things because they'd be a lot more profitable, but (B): we'd be able to answer that question better. I think the values of the people who live in those seats is still aligned with the overwhelming values of Australians. That is, everyone wants to see a better outcome for Indigenous Australians, indeed, a better outcome and more opportunities for all Australians. We may occasionally disagree on the best pathways to that, and that obviously happened on the weekend. I would make the point to everyone who keeps saying this, that if you look at Warringah, which is Zali Steggall’s seat, in 2018, it voted 75% in favour of same-sex marriage. Two weekends ago, it voted 58% in favor of the Yes campaign for the referendum. That would seem to indicate that there's been a 17% swing in values. I don't think that's actually the case. Now, as you know I've been firmly of the view that we should as the Liberal Party -
GORMAN: That’s some very interesting kind of –
FALINSKI: - be going after the aspirational voters.
GORMAN: Jason, if we want to sort of start connecting all of those points, do we want to go back to when they were voting for Tony Abbott to be the Federal member? I mean –
FALINSKI: - yeah, I know, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
GORMAN: - that’s a lot of dots that you've connected there. I don't know if you've got the string out on the pin-up board at home.
FALINSKI: Pat, I – no, mate. The only thing I use pin up board for is a dartboard, and I usually miss. But the fact of the matter is, and if you want to go back to 1999, Tony Abbott's electorate or then electorate of Warringah voted in favour of the Republic while he was running around the country arguing against it. And then on top of that, then he got re-elected another six times. My point is that these referendums and these specific issues - and I think, Pat, you would agree with me on this - are not actually an indication of how people would vote on who they think the next government would be. And ultimately the Teals will have to argue to their communities that they have been successfully representing their views in Parliament. And I think, as we're more than halfway through this term, if you were being honest with yourself, you would have to say they have failed. Now, that's an argument that other people can make at other times, but I think that's going to be the more important question.
CONNELL: I feel like asking Jason who's on your dartboard? Maybe you shouldn't say that. I don't know, is that not PC these days?
GORMAN: I don’t wanna know Tom.
FALINSKI: Tom, you and Pat are clear, Tom. Don't worry about it. Anyway, Tom, so don't worry.
CONNELL: Oh, okay.
FALINSKI: I keep missing anyway so don’t worry. You're safer on my dartboard than off it.
CONNELL: Fair enough. The poor walls of Jason Falinski’s house. Just in ten seconds, -
FALINSKI: - True.
CONNELL: - Pat, are the suburbs a worry for Labor here? Or is this just what happens in this type of referendum?
GORMAN: Look, ultimately, a referendum is decided on a national and a statewide vote. The proposition for a constitutionally-enshrined Voice didn't get there. We'll continue with our agenda on a range of things that help all Australians. From making sure we make cheaper medicines, deliver on cheaper childcare for 1.2 million Australians, expanding fee-free TAFE and all the rest. But I feel like if you want me go through the full list, I'm happy to, but I think I’m getting the wrap up -
CONNELL: Nah, that’s alright it's alright. Put it in an email, Patrick, Jason -
FALINSKI: Oh come on let him, otherwise he has to go back and doorknock wine bars.
CONNELL: Yeah, well, it's still, what, 9:30 in Perth? Wait ‘til they've had a couple at lunchtime, Patrick, before you talk politics. That'd be my advice.
FALINSKI: That’d be a lot of wine bars, a lot of wine bars.
CONNELL: Patrick, Jason, speak to you in a couple of weeks. Thank you.