TOM CONNELL, HOST: Welcome back. It's time for your fortnight nightly dose of truth, when the two men in question break apart from their usual boring party lines and tell you what they really think. I'm talking about the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman. NewSouth Wales Liberal Party President Jason Falinski. Thank you both for your time. Jason, I'll start with you must have been nodding in agreement. Major tax reform. Look at the GST. That's the call from the Teal MPs. This was their pitch before the last federal election, wasn't it? Great idea?
JASON FALINSKI, NSW LIBERAL PARTY PRESIDENT: No, it wasn't, Tom. It wasn't. I've actually never been more upset with the Australian media than I have been over this story we witnessed on Sunday morning. Allegra Spender, who, by the way, prior to the last election, received a quarter of a billion dollars in tax income from overseas, questioned by David Speers, refused to actually answer any questions. And today we see on the front page of the AFR them telling the other Australians to be brave. They won't tell us what they want to do. They won't even tell Laura Jayes whether they be willing to reconsider the GST arrangements with the Western Australian Government. It is appalling journalism. It is about time that they were held to account. And when they talk about tax reform, what do they mean? Allegra Spender has had one roundtable on it. Three of the five people on that roundtable have said that the capital gains tax should apply to the family home have said that the family home should be means-tested. Two of her advisers on tax have said that we should have a wealth tax. No one has put that to Allegra Spender. No one has asked the Teals why it is that prior to the last election they said that they were in favour of stage three tax cuts. And now, after the election, all of a sudden they want to talk about not having them. And no one that I'm aware of anywhere in the Australian media has yet put to a single member of the Teals why they voted to give some of the most profitable coal companies in the world $950 million in taxpayer funds. Tom, if we're going to have a serious conversation about tax reform, if we're going to talk about make making Australia a wealthier, not a poorer nation, and actually making sure that younger generations are better off than older generations, then it starts with that conversation being serious and people actually being brave, not just getting headlines.
CONNELL: Patrick, it seems every Intergenerational Report we have governments saying, 'gee, this situation's dire, we'll address it one day.' No one wants to take the major action now. Same case with Labor sort of kicking this can down the road.
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: We've already got an ambitious tax reform agenda in the Parliament. If you look, we've got the changes to the Petroleum Resource Rent Tax, sensible changes that will get a fairer share for Australians out of those natural resources. You've got the sensible changes to superannuation tax reform and we've got our plans to make multinationals pay their fair share. I'd urge all of those Independent, Teal, whatever we want to call them, Members of Parliament, and indeed the Coalition, to get behind those changes, because they are sensible, well thought out, that start to -
CONNELL: Sensible on the one hand, but also ambitious. I mean, they're modest, aren't they, these changes?
GORMAN: Of course, Tom, I don't believe that you have to choose between being sensible and ambitious. You can be sensible and ambitious. Jason is sometimes sensible and ambitious.
FALINSKI: Sometimes. But Tom, I'm going to defend Patrick and the Labor Party on this. At least they have proposals. It unlike the Teals. They don't turn up posturing, carrying on and get some red carpet treatment by the Australian media. I mean, Laura Jayes was the first person today to actually put some questions to Allegra Spender. And I note, once again, no one is talking about the fact that her and her siblings received nearly over a quarter of a billion dollars in tax free income from offshore. Now, I mean, if we're going to have proper tax reform, why can't we start with everyone in that conversation being held to some level of integrity? Starting with the last election, they said they wanted to end fossil fuel -
GORMAN: - can I just say?
FALINSKI: But now they've given coal companies a billion dollars.
GORMAN: Jason, I'm not going to drag people's siblings into policy discussions. I don't think we need to do that, whoever they may be. What we can do, though, is talk about this idea of increasing the GST. Let's be really clear, this is like reheated leftovers from the Turnbull-Morrison era. Remember that they were all very excited about reforming GST for a few months and then all of a sudden that idea went away. Increasing the GST might be something where the Commonwealth does the heavy lifting for the states but it doesn't actually address the big challenges that we're seeing in that Intergenerational Report. It's not the sort of idea that we need right now -
CONNELL: It can go part of the way can't it? It seems as a more efficient tax Patrick and you get rid of some other ones like payroll tax - which might actually happen this time if the states do it. So, you say it won't fix it, but it can be part of the solution. We're talking major tax reform?
FALINSKI: Well, Patrick. Do you want a wealth tax? Do you want to revisit the WA arrangements with the GST? Do you want to broaden the base of the GST?
GORMAN: It'll be no surprise, Jason, to any of my constituents, any Sky News viewers, any of my colleagues in the Federal Parliament, that I think having a floor for the GST, under which no state, including Western Australia, can fall below is a sensible way to make sure that every state is brought in on the GST arrangements which we currently have.
CONNELL I'm not surprised about that, Patrick, that's why I'm going to jump in there, because we know the answer there. What about you, Jason? Is the money we give to WA now a good idea? Sensible use of distribution, given where it's at in a budget sense?
FALINSKI: No, no. The problem with the WA deal, and before Patrick points it out is a deal that was introduced by a government that I was a member of, is that it puts a flaw under the amount of money that the Western Australian Government receives on the GST, that it only relates to the iron ore price.
GORMAN: Every government, every state, every territory.
FALINSKI: So, if for example, the cotton price in NSW goes up through the thing - no, it's not true, Patrick. Every year, the Western Australian Government receives from every man, woman and child on the eastern states a massive subsidy in cross subsidisation on the GST. But this isn't the real argument, Tom. The real argument is that young people are supporting older people in our nation. It's one of the few generations -
CONNELL: Yeah but that can be part of the argument - let me just sorry. Well, there can be multiple facets of this.
GORMAN: The viewers need to know this. People need to know this. Western Australia is happily, a net contributor. Western Australia is proudly a net contributor to taxation revenue.
CONNELL: It wasn't many years ago I've lost control today. Jason let me just tie this off quickly with - are you saying the GST deal was flawed? That the Coalition proposed and signed up to a few years ago?
FALINSKI: Yes. It was flawed, it continues to be flawed.
CONNELL: Okay. It was easy. It is. Patrick, it is flawed. All right? So it should be changed. Patrick, I need to ask you about the voice. Julie Bishop is lending her voice to this campaign alongside Penny Wong. Why? Is she what the Voice Yes Campaign needs right now?
GORMAN: I've just been walking through the streets of Perth with Julie Bishop, Penny Wong and Dean Parkin. We've been here at Perth Train Station handing out flyers to people coming into work to talk about constitutional recognition. And I think it's important to have people like Julie Bishop, who've been part of this long journey from the Howard Government through the Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison years, recognising that this is something that is above partisan politics. And I'd say that Julie Bishop is one of the best talents to come out of the Liberal Party in recent decades from the West.
CONNELL: Maybe the quality of the Yes a little recently is struggling in WA in particular, with the cultural laws over there and what that's done to the Yes campaign?
GORMAN: No, what it shows us is that this is not about any form of partisan politics, which is what some people want to make it. What it shows us is that people who have thought about this carefully over decades, people like Julie Bishop, who's got great respect here in the West. People like Penny, who I think generally people will admit, does Australia proud on the world stage. Whatever your politics, that this is something that will enhance our constitution, will enhance representative government, it'll be good for the next generation. And let's not let partisan politics get in the way. Let's get this done for Australia for now and for the future. And it was just good to be talking with members of my community, with Julie Bishop. There's still a lot of goodwill, I'm glad she's not running against me at the next election.
CONNELL: Got to jump in. Funny how the praise always Patrick. Although you always praised Jason while he was still in Parliament, and then he lost his seat, so maybe the Liberal Party don't need your approval.
GORMAN: I didn't quite catch that, Tom.
CONNELL: All right. We'll talk again if you're both still with me. Patrick, Jason talk soon. We're going to take a break.