SARAH FERGUSON, HOST: Katy Gallagher, welcome to 7.30.
SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR WOMEN: Thanks for having me on, Sarah.
FERGUSON: Today you've announced super will be paid on government-funded parental leave from 2025. Why wait so long to bring it in?
GALLAGHER: Well, this is an announcement we've made on the eve of International Women's Day, but it's going to be in the next Budget. So, in May. We've made that decision. We'll need to pass legislation and we'll need to put in place the systems to deliver that payment. And we believe that's a reasonable timeframe that we'll be able to do all of that work. We've currently got – you know, takes a bit of time to get legislation through the Parliament, and that really is the reason why we think a 1 July 2025 start date is the day that everything can, you know, the green light can be pressed and everything can go ahead.
FERGUSON: Just to be clear, this would sail through Parliament. If it were a bigger spending priority for you, wouldn't you be able to bring it in sooner than that?
GALLAGHER: Well, we'd have to pass the Budget. Obviously, we've got the appropriation bills that would come forward. That doesn't happen until after May. We need to get the systems in place. It's not as straightforward as people might think. It's going to be paid as an annual payment in arrears to the super funds. So, there is a bit of work that we need to do to get that system in place, but our commitment is clear. The funding will be provided in the Budget.
FERGUSON: But it's not being delayed because it's just too expensive for now?
GALLAGHER: No, not at all. And in fact, this is an investment that we think is important on a number of fronts. One, that we'll try and try to close the super gender pay gap, but also to send a strong message that we value care and we value the fact that women predominantly are the ones that come in and out of their careers caring for children, and this is the only workplace entitlement that doesn't have superannuation paid on ordinary time earnings. So, we think that's important. And in terms of costs, Sarah, it actually gets more costly as we go on. Because we're extending PPL to six months. So from what it is now, it'll rise to 26 weeks. And so over time, the super component of that is going to become more expensive. So, it's not a matter of that, it's a matter of timing for implementation and being very clear to people that this change is coming.
FERGUSON: You said today that it's going to cost more than $200 million. How much is it going to cost?
GALLAGHER: Well, we'll be finalising that all in the Budget but as I said, it does get more expensive. It's about 180,000 people we believe, per annum, will get that payment, and then putting that payment on as the payment – as the PPL rates increase. But it will be a big investment in the Budget. Probably one of the biggest we make, and it's well over a couple of hundred thousand – sorry, a couple of $100 million per year.
FERGUSON: Let me ask you this question, is it your ambition to extend paid parental leave in Australia?
GALLAGHER: Well, I have a very firm focus on trying to end gender inequality in this country. And I think it's clear that how we value care, who cares for whom, how they do it, how they're recognised, has a big impact on gender equality in this country. I think there's a lot of support to see what more you can do around balancing work and care, but we have a whole range of other areas that we want to shift the dial in as well. So as with all things Sarah, these are about choices you make, room you make in the Budget, and you weigh it up with a whole range of other competing pressures. But in an ideal world, yes you would. You would want to do that and more.
FERGUSON: Well, let me ask you about that a bit more precisely, because we know there are countries in the world that offer much more generous paid parental leave as a way of creating the kind of society we're talking about, particularly in the Nordic countries. I think most women would want to move there if they knew how many weeks were available to women for paid parental leave. I want to come back to the direct question. Is it your ambition to extend paid parental leave to make it longer in Australia and to extend it to more people?
GALLAGHER: Well, that's not a decision we've taken now. Our decision has been to extend it from 18 going to 20 going to 26 weeks. That will be fully implemented by 2026. And now we're paying super on that. So, that is a significant change to the paid parental leave system in Australia. And yes, there is always more you can do, but, Sarah, there's more we could do in ending violence against women and children and the investments there. There's more we should be doing and could be doing for older women. You know, in housing, in health care. I mean, these are some of the balancing-up decisions that we have to take. How much how much room do we have for these investments? Where are they best deployed? And how will it shift the dial on gender equality in this country?
FERGUSON: Let's talk about the gender pay gap, because you say that on current figures, it'll take 15 years to close that pay gap, which is an extraordinary length of time, isn't it, given the ambition that exists in Australia? What other specific measures are you going to take to target that gap?
GALLAGHER: Well, so one thing we're doing is publishing the gender pay gap. So, of companies with more than 100 employees. And I think this conversation that was started about that is heading us in the right direction. Certainly, women around the country are logging in to check what's happening in their industry. So, transparency and accountability, having plans to close the gender pay gap for companies to have to report to their boards about what is going on in their organisations. The other thing we need to do is really shift the sort of nature of the gender segregated industries we have in Australia. So, how we balance it up better for men in the caring sector and women in, say, construction and clean energy, how we deal with that will make a difference. And the other area is how we value and remunerate those highly feminised industries. But there is a lot of work to be done there, Sarah. And I'm not pretending it's easy, and I don't think there's a silver bullet. But I do think it's a conversation that's kind of become a bit of a water cooler last week, with people talking about it and that's a fantastic outcome.
FERGUSON: Has the Expenditure Review Committee angered some ministers by holding back spending on Labor policies in order to produce another surplus?
GALLAGHER: Well, the ERC is doing its job and I have the role of Finance Minister, which is a privilege, but it also comes with the need to say no quite a lot. There is no shortage of ideas across our Cabinet and our Caucus. I think we try to give everyone a fair hearing. We also have to make sure we're getting the Budget in better shape for all the pressures that are coming our way, that we have to do, just as part of being in government. So, I accept, you know, people have different views about it, but I feel like we run a pretty fair operation. But I do have to say no quite a bit.
FERGUSON: Now, Ed Husic is reported as having complained to the Prime Minister that Finance and Treasury officials have too much influence. Are you aware of those complaints that Ed Husic has made?
GALLAGHER: Well, I don't really want to go into conversations that we have in Cabinet. I don't - I've never done that, and I don't intend to start now. But I would say that certainly I work very closely with the Secretary of the Department of Finance, and I see them as a significant value add to the work that we do. I see them certainly as enhancing the process. And I'd say that for Dr. Kennedy at the Treasury as well.
FERGUSON: Someone's talking to the media though, is this just normal tensions leading up to Budget or is there genuine antagonism about what's happening inside the ERC?
GALLAGHER: Look, I can't answer that, Sarah. I mean, I haven't been out chatting about it, but I accept that, you know – and I really feel this in my role, and that's why I've really tried to lean in and work with ministers to get an understanding of what their priorities are and how they, you know, need to meet those before we take decisions. And I'll keep doing that. I think there's always room to improve your processes. Jim and I are always open to feedback, we get a fair bit of it. But also, the reality is every Budget, you can only do so much, and at times that means saying no to colleagues, even if that's a polite no.
FERGUSON: Katy Gallagher, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
GALLAGHER: Thank you, Sarah.