THOMAS ORITI, HOST: Women make up 51 percent of the Australian workforce but still today, women earn on average, around 14 percent less than men each week. The Federal Government will introduce new legislation today, aimed at closing that gender pay gap. The change will see wage gap data for employers with 100 or more workers made public. It'd be published on the Workplace Gender Equality Agency website from next year. Senator Katy Gallagher is the Minister for Women and the Minister for Finance and she joins us now. Senator, good morning, and thank you for your time.
SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR FINANCE: Good morning. Thanks for having me on.
ORITI: Mary Wooldridge is the director of the Workplace Gender Equality Agency, and she wrote last month, this is a quote, "at every industry and at every level, men are still valued more than women in our society". What has to happen to change that misconception?
GALLAGHER: Well, there's not a single solution, unfortunately. I think people have been working away at this for many years. But measures that we're taking today, for example, like putting in this new, these new legislation around transparency and accountability are going to help. You know, we see women at the beginning of their careers actually earning similar to men, a bit behind, but by the time women finish their careers, there's a massive gender pay gap, and we have to do a whole range of things, Tom, to actually deal with that. Part of it is about, you know, collecting information and then reporting that information to affect change. But it's also a broader question about how we value women, and some of the steps we have to take around gender equality more broadly across the community. But we're trying to do a whole range of those things. This is an important step in terms of raising awareness, and also holding organisations to account where there is a gender pay gap across their organisation. And that's the big change. We've been collecting this data about gender pay gaps across businesses with more than 100 employees for some time. What we're going to do from next year is report against that organisation, what's happening in their organisation, and that's going to show everybody what's happening. And we know that that will change behaviour.
ORITI: Do you know that will change behaviour, if it's published on the Workplace Gender Equality Agency website? Do you think that that level of transparency will make a difference, if one listening might argue nothing really has made a difference right now? I mean, men on average are paid far more than women in Australia, $26,600 a year, to be precise, at the moment.
GALLAGHER: Yeah, that's right. I mean, the gender pay gap's sitting at about 14 percent. When you look at measures that include bonuses, and all those other kinds of payments, it's much higher than that. So this will make a, this will be a significant step forward. We've seen there is evidence overseas, particularly in the UK, where this was done. For those that were, had quite substantial gender pay gaps, when that was reported against their organisation, there were obvious steps that those businesses were taking to close that gender pay gap. The other thing we're doing in this legislation is requiring that the organisation actually provide that information to their board in case it's not being provided to their board, so that those directors can actually see what's happening as well. So this is –
ORITI: Sorry to interrupt there, just in terms of that level of transparency, though, sorry to interrupt, but one of the other issues, it's not just the pay gap, right? It's that women are still underrepresented in management - because like you mentioned board, the board there - and overrepresented in lower paying support roles. How do you think a bill like this today will change that?
GALLAGHER: Well, I mean, there's a whole range of solutions that are needed. I'm not standing here pretending that this legislation is going to fix all of those things, we've got a whole range of other issues we need to deal with. Part of our IR reforms last year were about making sure that in those highly feminised industries, that we were ensuring that they could get good pay and conditions and have good bargaining arrangements in place. We've got to deal with this issue of flexibility at work as well. The reality is where the gender pay gap gets larger and larger is from the ages of the late-twenties to the mid-forties. And we know what's happening then. Women are having children, they're taken out of the workforce full-time, those opportunities for promotion, for climbing up the corporate ladder, are taken away because they're doing you know, they might be working part-time.
ORITI: Do you think that there is a growing - I wanted to ask you about that, the importance of flexibility, part-time work arrangements, paid parental leave, that sort of thing - do you think that there's a growing awareness of that in Australian society, that you need to provide that flexibility for female workers?
GALLAGHER: Yes, I do. And I think if there was any positives coming out of the pandemic, it sort of accelerated that shift on flexible work arrangements. Businesses were able to see that they could keep going, you know, they were having, putting in place, flexible work arrangements. We're seeing across the country that those are continuing, but there's more to be done. One of the big challenges is how do we make sure that women who are working part-time are getting the same promotional opportunities, that those management and senior positions are seen as jobs that you can do under flexible working arrangements. I think there's a role for the public service in making sure we're leading the way on that as an employer to send the message and set the standard.
ORITI: Is the public service leading the way at the moment in that space? A lot of people might argue that the private sector has a lot of initiatives the public sector is not seeing.
GALLAGHER: Yeah, that's right. I think the public sector has fallen behind. It used to set the standard about conditions of employment and lead the way. I don't think it's been doing that for a few years now, we're trying to change that. We've got a big piece of work underway around flexible work arrangements across the APS. I've asked for that work to be done so that we can make sure that we are doing what we can to support people, well, attract people to the public service and keep them, for a start, because increasingly, people are looking for good, flexible working arrangements to suit their other responsibilities. And, you know, obviously, that's a massive issue for women.
ORITI: Senator, you're also the Minister for Finance, so I just wanted to ask you about that. And obviously, not taking away from the significant issue we've just been discussing, but following yesterday's RBA meeting, the Coalition accused Labor of contributing to upward pressures on interest rates and cost of living pressures for thousands of Australians, your response to that?
GALLAGHER: Well, it's not true, for a start. And I think rather than listen to the federal Coalition, I would look at some of the assessment that the ratings agency and the IMF have been doing about the October Budget and what they saw, what they recognised, was that we showed spending restraint, and that that was needed to ensure that the Government wasn't adding to inflationary pressures across Australia. And we, you know, we banked, I think, 99 percent of the upward revenue to budget repair. So, I think, you know, a political attack, sure, but the Government is doing what we can to make sure we don't add to inflation. The next Budget will be very conscious of that. I mean, it is the defining challenge across the economy at the moment.
ORITI: And challenges ahead, though. The RBA has said this isn't the end of it, we could see further rate rises. How concerned are you that this could lead to a recession? There's a lot of uncertainty out there at the moment.
GALLAGHER: Yeah, well, there is a lot of uncertainty, not just here. I mean, across the global economy. We've got a war in Ukraine, we've got a whole range of things that are affecting economies globally. We're mindful of all of that. Obviously, we'll put the Budget together very carefully, our forecasts don't flag a recession at this point in time. You know, we accept that people are doing it very tough, and we are not going to make the job of the Reserve Bank harder. You know, we've got to make sure that fiscal policy works hand in hand with monetary policy. And we've got to get inflation back to a more normal range because that erodes living standards and puts other pressures on households as well.
ORITI: The RBA Governor though, Philip Lowe, calls from the Greens yesterday for him to resign. We heard from the Treasurer Jim Chalmers today saying, look, I'm looking to take financial advice or advice on the RBA from the Greens, but a review of the RBA will be published next month. I mean, if it recommends that the Governor needs to go, will that happen?
GALLAGHER: Well, we need to see what the review hands down. Obviously, that, when that's released, that will be published. But you know, it is an independent and important role in our economy, the RBA bank. I think taking political shots at individuals is you know, is really disappointing.
ORITI: It is an individual, they would argue, provided, you know, some commentary during the pandemic that some people would say - I mean, he absolutely denies this - but some people will say, led them down a path that might not have been advisable, in hindsight.
GALLAGHER: Well, and I think the Governor has addressed those comments and explained them. You know, no, I don't want to speak for the Governor at all. But I would say that we rely on the work of the Reserve Bank, you know, they've got a mandate that they have to pursue, they're doing a difficult job of trying to get inflation back to normal ranges. And the job the Government's got to do is make sure that we're not making their job harder. And that's what the Budget, that's the terms with which the Budget will be put together, how we can provide sensible cost of living relief that doesn't add to the inflationary pressures we're seeing across the economy.
ORITI: Senator, thank you for joining us. Appreciate your time.
GALLAGHER: Thanks very much, Thomas.