TOM TILLEY, HOST: Katy Gallagher is the Minister for Women. Minister, thanks for joining us on The Briefing.
SENATOR THE HON KATY GALLAGHER, MINISTER FOR WOMEN: Thanks for having me on.
TILLEY: What was your reaction when you heard about the murder of Lilie James?
GALLAGHER: It’s everyone’s worst nightmare. I think, for her family, for herself, a devastating loss of life. And, yeah, it’s just horrific. I think everybody right around the country – which is I think why it’s got so much attention – just were completely shocked and devastated by what that poor young woman went through and what her family will continue to go through and what the school community... All of those students are now having their life touched with this and having that lasting impact.
TILLEY: So, as the Minister for Women, you’re leading the Government’s work to try and stop the devastating level of partner murders in Australia. And I guess, to make change across the country, you need to drill down on what are the common factors in these killings. And when you look at the basic facts of the Lilie James murder, it was by someone that she knew, someone she’d been dating before trying to break up with. It appears to have been pre-meditated, we’re learning that he borrowed a car and bought a hammer. We know that it happened at a place of work and then that he took his own life afterwards. So, of the main factors in this case, which of those are quite common? And which of them aren’t?
GALLAGHER: Certainly, the prevalence and level of violence that women are subjected to at the hands of intimate partners or former partners is extraordinarily high in this country. I think for young people, for those aged around the age of Lilie James and teenagers, in some of the latest surveys it’s around 30 per cent of that age group are saying that they have experienced some level of intimate partner violence or former partner violence. Obviously, being killed by that former partner or partner is at the extreme end. But there’s a lot of violence that happens before that, often. And so that is, unfortunately, in the case of Lilie and many other thousands of women across the country, something that they experience. I think the breakup, obviously, or a relationship breakdown, often causes an increase in the violence that women are experiencing. And it is predominantly women. I know there are examples where it’s women violent towards men, but predominantly it is the other way.
So, there are certainly features from what I’ve read about Lilie James and her experience that are quite common. I think there’s also some things that would be unique and different. I mean, the workplace, we know that women aren’t always safe in their workplace and that impacts on colleagues as well. And I think we know that it happens across the community, in every strata of the community. Whether you be on low incomes, high incomes, whether you live in one part of Sydney or in the Northern Territory or in my backyard in Canberra. We know that violence against women is right across the country and nobody really can believe that they are not going to be touched by it. And I think that’s one of the issues when we look at the research and things – I think about 90 per cent of Australians when they’re surveyed believe that violence against women is a problem. But then, only less than half of that believe that it’s a problem in their area. So, there is a bit of a disconnect about who it happens to and where it happens. And we need to do more work on that.
TILLEY: Is part of that misconception that it happens to poorer people and not wealthier people? Because, obviously, these two individuals were at a very elite private school...
GALLAGHER: Well, yeah, I think it’s easy to sort of think, “yeah, I’ve read about it, it’s a problem, but I don’t think it happens to me or my family or my friends.” And that’s part of the issue. That until – it's really only in the last decade that we’ve been having a lot more conversations about domestic violence and family violence. Before, it was much more of a private matter that happened behind closed doors. And there has been, importantly, a very significant and positive shift into saying “no, this is not a private matter.” This is something that we have to work on, we have to address and we have to try and change the root causes that lead to violence being such a problem in this country. And that is positive. But we’ve got, as we can see from the number of women who have just been killed in the last month – I mean, seven women across the country who’ve lost their lives in October, including Lilie. That shows the prevalence of this problem. And that’s, as I said, at the extreme end, when somebody has lost a life. There is hundreds of thousands of women who will be experiencing violence or control at some level in their lives, right across the country every day, every minute of every day in this country.
TILLEY: I was interested in the statement you just made about it shifting, in our minds, from a very private matter to something we need to deal with publicly. And yes, as part of that growing awareness we’ve seen more of an effort by governments to try and change the culture around this. But so far, we're not really shifting the needle on the numbers. We’re looking at approximately 50 of these partner homicides a year. About one a week. And, as you said, seven last month. So, well above the average. So, is it just a lag effect? Or is this change in conversation and awareness actually not doing anything?
GALLAGHER: Well, I’m someone that believes that you just keep pushing towards the change you want to see. And I think that conversation is an important start. Raising awareness of it, the extent of it, is an important part of shifting the dial. But I also think that because it’s such a pervasive and endemic part of our Australian community life, that we can’t expect it to change overnight. And some of the most significant changes we need to make is getting to young people. Getting into the schools early. Really putting an effort into the respectful relationships type of education so that from the earliest point, we are trying to change some of the attitudes that exist in this country, which are founded in gender inequality and then impact women and girls through their lives in one way or another. And that change can’t happen overnight.
But having said that, I think we’re getting much better at making sure we’ve got services and supports for women to leave violent situations. So, making the social security system work better to support women. Making sure we’re giving the right support so that women and children can leave without some kind of financial constraint on them. So, making sure that childcare works for them. We can come at it a range of different ways and we’re trying to do that. And working with the States and Territories – because obviously they have a huge role to play, especially on the frontline services and the police side of things. And we do, importantly, have every single government in Australia on the same page about what has to happen and all pulling in the same direction. And I think that makes a difference as well.
And the other area, I think, is this focus on perpetrators. So instead of the discussion which has always been why didn’t she leave – which I think we’ve all heard before – into why doesn’t he stop? And so, a focus on perpetrator behaviour and an investment in that to make sure that we are recognising that men and boys are a big part of the solution here. And providing the right services and supports for them. And also through the legal system and the police, particularly – making sure, you know, information about perpetrators is available.
TILLEY: So, we’re talking about logistical, legal police intervention on the perpetrators’ side, but also support for people trying to get away from these violent situations. But as you touched on, a big element of this is also about cultural and attitudinal change around gender roles and the behaviour of mostly men who are more likely to be the perpetrators. It just makes me wonder how much work in the attitudinal gender space can really make a difference if someone is just going to end up crossing over into the space where they can do this kind of thing? He’s obviously just gone to the darkest place a human mind can ever go. Is there any real way you can prevent someone doing that through cultural change or education?
GALLAGHER: It’s hard to talk about specific cases and understand what led to that happening in that individual instance for him. But I think it’s the biggest opportunity we have to change what’s happening in this country. And it is long and hard work, but we have to get to boys. Particularly in school, and educate – both boys and girls – and educate them about respectful relationships, about consent, around attitudes towards those social norms and gender roles about who does what. I mean, all of that is part of addressing the prevalence of violence, gender-based violence, in this country. It has to be. Because I think there’s a lack of understanding about gender inequality in this country as well. And that’s linked to this. So, I think a lot of people would say, oh, boys and girls have the same opportunities in life, you know, that are presented to them if they’ve had the same schooling, et cetera. And that’s just not the case. I mean, whether you look at violence, income, caring roles, jobs, the whole right across the economy, you can see that there is a difference between men and women, and women are often, you know, earn less, retire with less, have less assets, have less financial security. You can go through all the statistics. So, part of it’s about addressing that. But we have to reach kids, basically, and educate them.
And I think part of what we’ve also got to do is adapt as the situation changes. So, we know that through social media, for example, there’s a lot of social media personalities who perpetuate those harmful gender stereotypes and actually condone violence against women. And we know that there’s a lot of boys who are watching that and look up to those individuals as mentors or leaders. And so, as society changes we have to deal with how that’s changing too. So, we have to reach in to and try and get to boys to try and counter some of what they’re seeing on social media platforms. Because if we don’t, that will leave or bring up another generation where these types of stereotypes and behaviour is seen as acceptable when they’re not.
TILLEY: But does that necessarily link to the really extreme stuff? I get that those changes in attitude might change some of the stuff around maybe the coercive control end or those different elements. Do you think, though, or is there any proof that that links to stopping the more, the completely dark, extreme stuff like we’ve witnessed?
GALLAGHER: Well, it has to be part of it. And attitudes towards women and disrespect for women and views about women being less than you, or deserving violence, you know, addressing that is part of it. It’s not the only thing. That’s going to be the longer term, harder work but we have to change that. The other parts are how we provide frontline services, how we support women to leave those situations and how we get the justice system to work and act as a deterrent. And all of that work is happening. So, it’s not one solution. It’s right across the board. And we have to do everything we can to make sure that women aren’t put in the position that too many women are put in every day, every minute of every day.
TILLEY: That was Katy Gallagher, Minister for Women.