PROF LARISSA BEHRENDT, HOST: Minister Linda Burney has been a leader in First Nations issues for decades. She began her career as a teacher in western Sydney and went on to become Director General of the NSW Department of Aboriginal Affairs, before spending 14 years in the NSW Parliament. Linda was the first Indigenous person to be elected to the NSW parliament and the first Aboriginal woman to join the Australian House of Representatives. When Labor won office at the last Federal Election, Linda Burney was appointed Minister for Indigenous Australians. She was given the challenge of implementing the Uluru Statement from the Heart, and responsibility for the referendum to establish an Indigenous Voice to Parliament. Minister Linda Burney, welcome back to Speaking Out.
LINDA BURNEY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Thank you Larissa.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: Now I'm calling you, Minister. But I guess for me, I always think of you as a kind of leader and an Aunty, though you're a very young Aunty. And I have, my favourite memory of you, just to kind of give a sense of how long I've known you, I must have been about 11 and my dad was visiting a friend in Redfern and you were in the house. It's one of those little terrace houses and I'll never forget it. I walked in and you're in the kitchen doing something and I remember looking at you and I thought you were the most beautiful woman I’d ever seen. And of course at that time, we didn't have Aboriginal women in fashion pages and they weren't on television. And that image has always struck me but I don't want to seem super superficial because although that was the first time I saw you when I really remembered it. I've really come to admire you because you've had such a deep commitment to Indigenous issues. You've got great passion, and you're also very wise. So I usually start these chats by asking people where they grew up, and what shaped their worldview. And I guess, I’d ask you the same question with a sense of giving people an idea of where it was that you actually, at quite a young age, had a really strong sense of social justice and wanting to fight for our people.
LINDA BURNEY: Well thank you for that.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: You were expecting that were you.
LINDA BURNEY I remember really hating even at primary school kids getting bullied. I got bullied myself a little bit. I just I just hated unfairness and that was like, I'm not quite sure where it came from, but I grew up in a tiny little place called Whitton down in the Riverina. But I was raised by my great aunt and uncle who were children of the both wars and the Depression. They were of Scottish heritage so it was a very austere and but they raised me with really old fashioned values of never answering back, don't put your back to anyone when they're talking. There are a few old fashioned things like never sweep after dark and never whistle after dark. But mostly they raised me to be fair. And that's just stuck with me.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: I mean, I've obviously watched many iterations of where you've worked from organisations with the AECG, the Aboriginal Education Consultative Group, and the strong leadership role you took through the reconciliation movement, but also working in policy with the department. You're one of the few people I know who’s done a lot of community based work and then actually worked within the department. And I think people don’t appreciate that, when people see you now as a politician. But I was just wondering if you could reflect on what it was that you remember most or felt shaped you from that time, that you started out doing that grassroots, coalface community work?
LINDA BURNEY: Listening. That was the key. I remember some tough love at that time, but it served me well as difficult as it was to hear when I heard it, is just because you've got a piece of paper, don't think you're any better than anyone else.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: I feel like I’ve heard that too along the way.
LINDA BURNEY: And, you know, just the really key thing is speak when you've got something to say just don't talk to fill a gap. When you've had something to say, then say it. And of course, you'd relate to this, coming through the various iterations of my life, often being the only Aboriginal person and sometimes the only woman in a room. You're always so prepared. You’d read everything. You have sticky notes everywhere. And I think that being prepared has really served me well.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: I was actually going to ask you also about that trailblazing side because you were the first Indigenous person to join the New South Wales Parliament when you were elected in 2003 or entered it in 2003. And then the first Aboriginal woman to be elected to the Australian House of Representatives in 2016. These were no small things that kind of added to the visibility. My sense was always that you were driven by the work. So when you look back and see the impact of that on the community. What are your reflections?
LINDA BURNEY: Well at the time, I didn't see it as having that kind of impact. It’s more like, you’re busily going about your day and a woman in their 30s goes, I remember when you came to my year 12 graduation and what you said change my life. I go really? So they’re the sort of really lovely things that you hear but what I have come to understand Larissa, is the determination and the drive I have is who I am. But I never do things in the aggrandisement of myself. It's always about other people. It's always about the community. And as old fashioned as it sounds, public service, that's always been really important to me.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: I think that’s really come through. The other thing that strikes me when I look at the role you've played in the reconciliation movement, and I guess that built on a very strong commitment you had in the area of education, both from the community but also when you were working in policy and then in the parliament. And then you've gone on to work on the issues around constitutional recognition long before the campaign for a Voice and then of course, there was that. And the one thing that strikes me is that in all of this work that you've done, you've always believed in the better side of Australia. And I was wondering where that optimism comes from and has it been shaken by the referendum?
LINDA BURNEY: The optimism is because I think I know people. It’s very kind of you to say that I'm a young Aunty.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: You'll always be a young Aunty to me Linda.
LINDA BURNEY: I’m in my late 60s now, and I like to feel that people are basically good, and I think they are. I think the outcomes from the referendum have clearly been extraordinarily difficult and painful. Not just for me, but for millions of Australians and in particular our people. It still has not shaken my belief in people because I hold on to that. I believe in that. I see it all the time. During the campaign, which was much longer for me than most people. I think it was about 18 months. I just met millions of Australians, millions in airports, in supermarkets, on aeroplanes, just walking down the street, who said we've got to get this done. And whilst we can step back and say well the referendum was beaten in every state we've got to remember the silver linings, and one of them is that 6 million Australians voted with us.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: I thought there were many extraordinary moments on the campaign trail, but I was really struck on the night of the referendum. When so many First Nations hearts were breaking by the result. And you had the task of following Anthony Albanese, the Prime Minister, to speak and I was struck by having seen how much energy and heart you had put into the campaign that you then had to step up on this night when many of us couldn't get out off the couch and couldn't get out of bed the next morning, but you had to give a speech that I guess, couldn't belie any negativity that you might have been feeling but also had to give hope to everyone who campaigned for the yes vote and the First Nations people whatever their views were, who were feeling the impact of it. And I wonder what it was like for you at that moment. How do you prepare for a moment so important? What sorts of thoughts went through your mind?
LINDA BURNEY: Well, you always knew there was going to be that moment which would have been a different speech, had the referendum been successful. But also very prepared for not a successful outcome as well. And I, I think it was probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. But it was also my job and my responsibility and I had wonderful support throughout referendum day. I spent part of it out in my electorate and then travelled down to Canberra in terms of preparing for the speech after the Prime Minister and you know, the support the people around me, but I also felt the speech very much inside of me. And it was about pointing out the silver linings, accepting the decision of the Australian people, but also saying to our people, this is a setback, but be proud of what you've done, who you are, and we will go forward.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the going forward. But I just, I think it shocked many people and a lot of us have been involved in hard fights and you have as well and your work in the reconciliation movement, particularly in the earlier days, where there were very hard, awful, entrenched racist views within the community that the movement was really trying to shift. But I think it even surprised many of us how vitriolic but also how much misinformation was around during the campaign which makes it very hard to counter from a position of truth when you've got to first of all counter the lies and I was wondering whether given all your, the fights you've so gracefully gotten involved in, and handled so well, did it surprise you and how did you try and navigate what many people were finding, were mixed messages that were really muddying the waters?
LINDA BURNEY: Well, I always took the view that it was important for the Australian people to be positive, to be honest, and to be forward leaning and that's what the campaign did. And, of course the yes campaign had a much harder task than the no campaign. It's not hard to sow division. It's not hard to sow doubt and the misinformation was very prominent. There is no two ways about it. But you know what, Larissa? I'm not sure there's any value in saying who was right and who was wrong. The outcome’s clear. And the important thing now is to work out the way to go forward. And that's what we're planning to do.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: I watched you through the campaign and I thought at times you're sort of channelling two of my favourite Aboriginal female archetypes. There's a lot of Patyegarang in you, the diplomat who reaches across cultures and brings people in, that's very much a part of your style and part of the reconciliation movement. But there's also a lot of Barangaroo in you as well, the warrior woman and particularly watching you stand up in Parliament and have to take the barrage of, of issues that were thrown at you and things that were dragged up and thrown at you and then you know you became very much the person who had to have the shield to deflect the arrows. During that time, how did you find your strength? Where do you get the ability to be able to keep fighting and, and channel well, great warrior women.
LINDA BURNEY: Well, I love Barangaroo. I think I channelled her a lot. But you know what made such a difference, is having the support of the Prime Minister, the support of cabinet and caucus and a number of people across the parliament. That was extremely important and extremely powerful. But also knowing that right was on your side. Knowing that there were millions of Australians that believed in that rightness. Millions of Australians who were going to vote yes. And going all over this country to rallies to phone banks, just the belief and the enthusiasm of millions of Australians. But also what is extremely important and probably foundational is that there were hundreds and hundreds of Aboriginal organisations, civil society, the union movement, the faith movement, the sporting movement in Australia that was willing a yes vote.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: So where do we go from here? And I guess my question is not just about, you know, what might be the next steps forward. It is that bigger question as you said there were all these people who were heavily invested in the outcome, and have felt very deflated by it, so I guess there's a question of where do we go from here and how do we keep some momentum or stop a sense of feeling defeated?
LINDA BURNEY: Sure. A couple of things and I think that's a really important question. There needs to be some very deep listening. And that's my intention, along with other members of the Aboriginal caucus going forward. And there also needs to be an understanding of what Aboriginal organisations are saying, what Aboriginal leaders are saying. But the other thing that I’ve decided, is not to be rushed. I mean this is a big setback for us. There's no two ways about it. But there's been setbacks before as you know, and this is not about the timetable of the 24 hour media cycle. This is not about the timetable of the Opposition. This is about getting enough respect and time to the community to come forward and say this is where we should be going. And it's not my decision. It will be the decision of the community.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: It's been a gruelling campaign, a gruelling year and you know, as I say, I work in the portfolio that I invested in and so I have watched you very closely so I know that the pace at which your work was not lax before the campaign, but it's almost went up another notch. We're getting to the end of the year, are you gonna get some time to relax and recharge and what do you do when you do that?
LINDA BURNEY: Well, I am actually because I have to have a shoulder reconstruction.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: Oh gosh, that sounds like it’s sort of forced.
LINDA BURNEY: Well it will be forced, but that’s okay. But the really important thing is the first few weeks of next year, to make sure that we've got a roadmap forward. In February we have the Closing the Gap report and that's always very sobering. So there are things to keep in mind, there are certainly things to do and that’s what will happen.
LARISSA BEHRENDT: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Minister Burney, young Aunty, thank you so much for being with us. But thank you also, for your absolute lifelong commitment to our community. I know I've mentioned to you on other occasions there are a few people I've seen in public life, who every move they've made has been motivated by their belief that they can do more for our community. I've never seen you waver from that. And I thank you for that and for being such an inspiration.
LINDA BURNEY: Thank you